AS:
Hello and welcome to Talking Property, our CBRE podcast series where our team of experts, our clients, and industry specialists share insights into the way we live, work, and invest through the lens of commercial real estate. I'm Amanda Steele, Executive Managing Director of CBRE's Pacific Property Management Business, and I'm your host for this latest Talking Property episode.
Today we'll be talking about creating inclusive spaces and the vital role this plays in shaping our future cities. It's a very timely topic with Sydney World Pride currently underway, and it is fabulous, celebrating LGBTQIA+ arts and culture with a range of inclusive, diverse, accessible, and safe events. Having that same ethos of inclusivity to ensure that our cities offer welcoming spaces for everyone regardless of sexuality, gender, or race or background, is vital as our cities continue to evolve. And it's certainly something that's top of mind for government and the property industry. To talk more about this topic, I'm very excited to be joined by James Hulme, the Director of External Affairs and Strategy for the Office of the 24-Hour Economy Commission;, by Letitia Hope, the Partnership Experience Lead for ISPT; and by Belinda Mills, Senior Manager of Marketing and Communications at Brookfield Properties. Thank you all for joining me today. James, I'm going to start with you. I hope that's okay. I know the provision of inclusive spaces is a really big focus for the New South Wales government as part of its plan to build on Sydney's 24-hour economy, a strategy which I think is fantastic. As part of that, Sydney recently joined global cities, London, Stockholm, and Auckland, in flying the purple flag for safety across night-time destinations. So James, I'm really interested, can you tell us a little bit more about the Purple Flag program, some of the benefits that have been documented in other global cities, and the role you see the program playing in developing Sydney as an inclusive and thriving city?
JH:
Yes, of course. We are really delighted that Sydney has become the first city in the Southern Hemisphere to achieve Purple Flag status. It's an international program. Really, the concept is very simple. If you think when you go to the beach, where do you know where it's safe to swim between the flags? It's a similar concept with Purple Flag. It's an accreditation scheme that rates precincts and districts on a whole range of metrics, having good policies around safety, good lighting, good access to transport, good use of public spaces, diversity of offer, particularly at night, and areas that achieve that accreditation are able to promote themselves as a Purple Flag area. And as you mentioned, there's about 90 areas globally that have signed up to this. We want those areas, and there's only one that has been accredited so far in Sydney, but we hope there's many more. We want those areas to be exemplars for a great night time experience and really to be leading the way in terms of demonstrating what good looks like in terms of having a safe, inclusive, and diverse experience at night.
AS:
Yes, beautiful. And really important, James. There are increasing reports of women, children and other minority groups feeling unsafe in Sydney. So how do you address that? What are some of those big ideas? And I also want to know where that first district is.
JH:
Yes, of course. It's the YCK district - the York, Clarence and Kent Street district within the CBD. And it's a district that's developed over the last few years, primarily around small bars, but it's increasingly diversifying into live performance and other activities. We are also doing three other pilot areas across Greater Sydney and very different areas. We've got places like Haldon Street in Lakemba, which is very much based around eating rather than drinking and not based around alcohol. Church Street in Parramatta, which many of you will know has undergone significant regeneration with the light rail and Marrickville Road and Illawarra Road in the Inner West, which is a precinct that is focused around live performance. So, all very different areas, but we're certainly hopeful that they will all achieve accreditation as well. On the safety point, absolutely. It's a huge priority for our office. We take it incredibly seriously. We work across government and across industry to promote a really safe going out experience and particularly for young people and for vulnerable people. Sydney actually rates pretty well in terms of safety. The Economist produces a Safe Cities Index that last year rated Sydney as the fourth safest city in the world. Also, a lot of the polling we do internally with Ipsos demonstrates that actually Sydneysiders think that the city is pretty safe. That said, we are not complacent. There's, you know, real challenges still around, you know, some public order issues, alcohol-related violence, things like drink spiking are still prevalent within venues. So, our role as an office is just to work with stakeholders to try and make sure that we do everything we can to make sure that when people go out, they have the confidence that they will be safe and they can enjoy things and not have to worry about it.
AS:
Yes, great. Thank you, James. It is so impressive and important that government’s playing such a proactive role in fostering that inclusivity. It's something that goes hand in hand, of course, with major landlords and that broader property industry, which is why I'm so interested in it also. But Letitia, I know it's a significant focus for you and for ISPT. So, I'm keen to hear about how you are working to co-create those inclusive spaces with your customer partners and why you see it as being such a vital part of what you deliver.
LH:
That is essential and really underpins everything we are doing because we are putting people's wellbeing at the heart of our experience strategy. So, if we think about what makes people thrive, it's, you know, we use the PERMA model, so it's positive emotion, engagement, relationships meaning accomplishment, and then, you know, health or vitality. And so, thinking about all different sorts of people and all different sorts of things that make people thrive, we're using those as our pillars. And those pillars mean that we celebrate different occasions, you know, or in all forms of diversity throughout the year. A big thing for us is welcoming people in. So really creating that positive emotion that we provide and, and I think James' points are so essential, that feeling of safety and feeling comfortable and feeling curious to learn more about a space or communities within it. So, using those pillars, we're able to drive different interest groups and learning networks and people find, you know, more of their tribe. And as soon as we find more of our tribe and encourage us to maybe be in that place and linger that bit longer. And as I said, be curious about who else is there and what else is there for me. And we know that loneliness is such a big issue for our community, you know, especially, you know, coming out of the last two years. So many people, for us, finding something in place or through their work or through their experience of being back in cities or being near their workplace is so important to be able to find a connection and drive different relationships. So, we are celebrating lots this week. We love the vibe that all this diversity brings to the city. The amount of tourists that we've seen around as well, and then coming in and enjoying the celebratory things that we put on. As I said, this is, you know, part of the celebrations this week is highlighting different diversity, but I think also what's the big link between diversity is diversity and flexibility. And flexibility is such a big topic and something that you asked about, and people's flexibility in what they require is as diverse as people are. But the flexibility we need this week might be different to the flexibility we need next week. And I think learning about people and what makes them thrive is helping us drive change in our places.
AS:
Beautiful. You do such great work in this space, Letitia, and I'm always really impressed, and I love to hear you talk about it. That flexibility is a big part of inclusivity; how you feel welcomed in an organisation. And I think it is that welcoming piece that really drives that inclusivity. So, I don't think you can underestimate it, but I've heard you refer to that flexible approach to working as lifestyle working where everything is on the table. So, whether it's work days or part days or nights and even weekend work. And we've noticed in our data that there is a real spike in people coming in the weekend as well, which is interesting, if it's mutually agreeable, of course. So how do you accommodate that in your building and create those kinds of socially supportive spaces that make everyone feel welcome?
LH:
Look, I think it is turning it on its head and I think the whole working week has changed. So that's a flexible piece. I think when we look at different days as well that we celebrate, if we use the 26th of January, that is one that's come up recently that we can see a real change in the take up of people that are coming in to work on those days and being given the choice to swap to a different day. So that's a really great example that conversations are out there, conversations are changing, and it's giving people more flexibility to make choices that are aligned with their values. And as I said, this comes back to what helps makes them thrive. So that meaning piece. So, the more that we sort of have conversations about what's important to individuals and as I said, what's important this week and the flexibility people need this week might change in three months or might change next week. And that's what makes it really challenging, I think, is really putting the flexible into flexible. Really thinking diversity means diversity and that is a real game changer. But I think when we think about 24/7 economies and trying to really engage people with the city at different times, you know, changing work patterns is something that could really help support that.
AS:
Yes, I agree. Especially with different caring needs and the different, you know, blending of our work and lifestyle needs as well.
LH:
And I was just going to say too, I mean I think that's one thing that, you know, it's a big part of flexibility is being driven by parents, but I think what we are learning more about and what we've learned through Covid is people have got all sorts of things going on in their lives and, you know, flexible needs to be very inclusive of all the different things that people are juggling or want to juggle or want to include in their lives. And as I said, it comes back to what is really helping them be their best, where they want to go and how they want to develop. So, I think that's the bit that makes it a sometimes more challenging conversation because, you know, it is easier if we're all kind of doing the same thing and moving the same path. But it's actually not what helps places thrive either. We want that creativity, we want difference, and we want people when they are at their best. So, I think the more that we can sort of drive harder conversations make change, it enriches people, organisations, places, cities, countries and that's what we really want to see.
AS:
Yeah, beautiful. It is that openness, Letitia. I think to all that is the real game changer in this space. And Belinda, I know that that focus for Brookfield is really important around how we make everyone feel welcome. It's been a big focus for Brookfield for many, many years. You've done some very impactful NAIDOC and Reconciliation Week activities nationwide, particularly last year. And, of course, you have a beautiful World Pride exhibition in situ at Brookfield Place, Sydney, which is a beautiful building. You ran a program to align with White Ribbon Day, that had all barbers in your building talking to customers about domestic violence. So, tell us a little bit about the impact of those programs and why it's such a big focus for Brookfield.
BM:
For us, our placemaking program has always focused on the diversity because it makes sense for us to focus on diversity. Our populations in office towers come from all parts of the city. We have visitors from international, from interstate travelling to our offices. So, diversity is just a natural inclusion of our programming. It's not an add-on, it's just there. And it's really about aligning with the values of those communities to create vibrant places. As Letitia said, that diversity and difference actually creates energy, it creates an eclectic experience space, which is exactly what you want because it reinvigorates the workplace, it adds to creativity and it benefits employers at the end of the day as well. Our First Nations program was a fabulous example of that, and it was really for us, our goal was to create connections and it was really to have conversations that led to outcomes for people. So, the first thing we did was just not look at NAIDOC Week or National Reconciliation Week, but actually look at how can we tell a story over an extended program of time that allows people to engage one-on-one, as groups, in experiential ways. So literally getting their hands dirty with paint and being able to interact. And what we saw from that was a benefit beyond just our six-week campaign. We saw long lasting impacts because we saw tenants reach out for their Reconciliation Action Plan consultancy. We saw people getting curated artworks for their offices. We saw sponsorship partnerships developed as a result of it. We saw hundreds of artworks purchased by the individual tenants in our buildings. We had art auctions and that money was donated back to First Nations charities. So, the impact of our campaigns in our office spaces can really have much longer lasting effects if we really focus on building those relationships and the connections, which we were really excited to be able to do really simply by listening and having some conversations at the outset to make sure that what we did really was meaningful and inclusive for everyone. And accessible. I think that's the other part with our programming is remembering that everyone's coming into our experiences with different levels of knowledge, different levels of understanding, sometimes different biases that might be attached to things. And that's kind of something that we've attached to all of our programming is that accessibility has to be part of the conversation so that everyone can find an entry into the conversation. And that's been the same with our current exhibition with Clifford Chance at the moment. So, Clifford Chance have been running their Arcus Pride Art exhibition for 17 years now. It's a global art exhibition and they're a tenant at Brookfield Place, Sydney. So, when we started looking at our pride activation, obviously there's a lot of things you can do, very celebratory components, but we wanted to work with Chance to actually bring that exhibition out of their floor, out of hidden exhibitions and into a really public environment. So we were able to work with Doctor Liz Bradshaw to curate an exhibition for our lobby, but also to have that artwork shown on the George Street steps out from Wynyard Station, which we've managed to kind of transform into a bit of a canvas which allows so many people to interact with art. And what we really tried to do with this program was, yes, we have a rainbow or two thrown in for the recognition and the celebratory component, but the artwork itself is really about showing a different side to the LGBTQIA+ community and showing that art doesn't have to be always provocative. It can be a range of things and it can also be influenced by the cultures that the individuals have come from as well. And that they're not just LGBTQIA people. They're also people with cultural backgrounds. Some of them are First Nations representatives as well, some of them are migrants to this country. So, there's a real opportunity for them to share not just one side of who they are, but on the two faceted side, which is fantastic.
AS:
Yes, beautiful. Belinda. It's interesting with art, especially like when we talk about engagement and connection, we often go to food and beverage. But I feel like art is such an amazing way for everyone to connect and share in a very emotional way. So, I think you're doing great work there, but you're also doing fantastic work with technology and I think this is a really interesting focus area with inclusivity. I mean, you manage a huge global property portfolio, so what are you seeing overseas and how is Australia performing versus other markets in this, you know, creation of inclusive spaces and cities?
BM:
Yes, absolutely. So, I think Australia, I think definitely punches above its weight as the size of where we sit in the region. We're sometimes the smaller brother or sister in the global conversation, but I think across the property industry and across our cities, do a really good job at looking at that inclusivity. In Sydney and in other parts of Australia, we've actually rolled out BindiMaps, which is beacon technology that can be used to integrate with app technology for the visually impaired. And I think inclusivity has to factor in just navigating our spaces and thinking about it in a way that's inclusive of those who don't see the world in the same way we do every day. I think the other way that we've really done it on a global scale is our tenant app experiences that we have. So, what that has enabled for a lot of the industry, but the way we are using it to make it really powerful is a one-to-one conversation tool. So, it's not just a mass communication to say this is what's happening in our precincts. It's a real opportunity to ask the thousands and thousands of tenants that we have in our precincts, what they think we can do better at what they're loving, what would make them feel seen and heard and represented. And what we've found is when we ask, they are absolutely willing to share that information. They want to be able to be part of creating the programming in our precincts. And I think that's when you know that placemaking has been really successful is when people are part of the curation of the places they're in. From a global perspective, I think what James was touching on in safety is really important. Canary Wharf in the UK is also a Purple Flag precinct, and that has been a precinct that's been developing over time. And safety and art have been a big consideration factor in addition to sustainability for making people feel connected to that place. And then we also have in America different avenues that look at slightly different opportunities. There was a program out of the US called Partner to Empower, which was really about looking at supporting, black-owned businesses to get a foot into a retail environment and set them up for success and work hand-in-hand with them to deliver really long- lasting benefits back into the community.
AS:
Yes, beautiful. Thank you, Belinda. Really interesting work. We should wrap up. I could sit here and talk all day, but I'm going to start with you Belinda. I'm going to ask all of you this question. So poor Belinda is the first one to respond to it, but I think it's really interesting to reflect on personally, you know, what does an inclusive space look or feel like to you, Belinda?
BM:
I think it really has to be a space that's comfortable. It has to feel like there are opportunities to be seen, heard, and represented for everyone, not just certain groups. And there's a really fantastic quote that I think sums it up better than I could ever sum it up out of the Indigenous Placemaking Council, which is if nothing of your culture, history, language, or art is visible in the streets, parks and buildings where you live, you can never feel welcome there. And I think that really is what inclusivity is about. It's about making people feel like they belong in that space.
AS:
Yes, what a beautiful quote. That's lovely. Thank you, Belinda. James, I'm going to jump to you and ask you what's an inclusive space for you?
JH:
I think inclusive spaces need to be those that reflect society as a whole. And part of our work at the 24-Hour Economy office is to promote a diversity of offer at night. And so going out isn't just for young people or for certain demographics. There needs to be an offer for young people, for old people, for a whole diversity of demographic groups. So, I want to see a city that has lots of spaces that appeal to lots of different groups of people and there's something for everybody in the city. So that's what we're trying to work to. We work very closely with the property sector and they've always been a really important stakeholder for us because they are designing the precincts and districts of the future. So, we have a lot of conversations with them about how do you ensure that they are inclusive spaces. One example at the moment is Tech Central. We're all very excited about the potential of that redevelopment, but we're looking at a sort of precinct where it should be 24 hours, you should have 24-hour amenities. It also should be a fun precinct and somewhere where people will want to socialise as well as work. And it also needs to be really safe and welcoming precinct. So, we are talking to lots of people within the sector and within government about how do you make sure that the area is attractive and inclusive and welcoming for lots of people who use it.
AS:
Yes. And doing great work, James. Thank you so much. Letitia, lucky last. What does it feel like for you? Like, what's your personal connection to an inclusive space? What is it?
LH:
It's probably two things. The first is it's just that ability to be able to breathe and be yourself. So, I think just if you can walk into a space and you feel relaxed and we've all had that experience of walking in somewhere and thinking, 'Oh,' you know, your shoulders drop a little bit. You know, you feel a bit lighter. And I think being able to relax, but also being encouraged and supported to be even more of yourself. And I think that's the other part of it and all of the things that both James and Belinda have said that contribute to helping people do those things. The last thing I wanted to say is just thinking about, you know, if you had a vision or a dream, it's like, if we could just use the word 'people' and drop the words 'diversity' and 'difference'. If the word 'people' implies difference, it intrinsically is diversity. That would be a great place for us to get to.
AS:
Yes, beautiful Letitia. And the importance of language as well. Yeah, fantastic. What a great conversation. I've learned a lot today, but also it's really piqued my curiosity. Belinda, I can't wait to go down and explore more what's happening down at Wynyard and see the beautiful artwork around the street. Art, inclusivity, safety, you know, that cultural connection, all really important elements of what we're trying to achieve around inclusive spaces. Thank you so much for your time, James. Letitia and Belinda. It's been a really illuminating discussion and one I thoroughly enjoyed. It's fantastic to see such a significant government and industry focus on creating inclusive spaces that will help our cities thrive. It's such an important topic. Thank you also to everyone tuning into this latest episode of Talking Property with CBRE. If you like the show and want to check out more, visit
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