Hello and welcome to this special edition of Talking Property with CBRE. The Lobby Series is a collection of intimate talks with industry experts that uncover how we can maximise the human experience in the spaces we frequent every day. Each episode takes place in the lobby of some of Sydney's most iconic buildings and brings together our very own in-house experts with market leaders who are shaping our future cities. We hope you enjoy these insightful conversations.
SLT:
Hello and welcome to Talking Property with CBRE. My name is Sue-Lin Tin , Head of Digital and Technology for Pacific, and your host for today's episode. On the podcast today, we're talking equitable economics and how businesses of every size can connect performance factors to potential business outcomes. From diversity in the workspace, inclusive spaces and practices to drive investment - how do equitable organisations drive economic value? To help me unpack this topic, I'm joined by Rebecca Jinks, Director of ESG and Sustainability at Taronga Ventures. Rebecca's career has spanned in-house ESG focused business strategy development and program deployment to consultancy and advisory. She's previously worked with the UNAA as a board member expert on industry approaches to climate change responses, shows a track record of creating meaningful real world solutions to achieve the vision of the group. Rebecca has a reputation for leading and building teams and working with boards through periods of change and growth to deliver tangible business outcomes. She shares a focus on the intersection of ESG and real assets and through Taronga Ventures Advisory is working with companies to leverage technology and innovation solutions to mitigate ESG risks and take advantage of sustainability-related opportunities. Welcome, Rebecca. Thanks for joining me today.
RJ:
No worries. Thanks for having me.
SLT:
Can you give our listeners a quick overview of the work Taronga group does?
RJ:
At Taronga we're Asia's leading innovative and technology investor, and we have a focus on real assets, so buildings and infrastructure. We've got three business units. The first one is our Real Tech venture fund. And so with this part of the business, we invest in emerging and innovative technologies that disrupt and evolve real estate. And we try and take a responsible lens to that. We've got our Real TechX innovation program, which works with new companies and startups to foster their growth and development, and we've got our Taronga advisory arm where we support corporates and participants in the real assets industry to deliver ESG and innovation programs. So we work with corporates and our investors, CBRE being one, to bring to them new startups to solve some of those pretty wicked real estate, real asset and innovation problems.
SLT:
Yeah, amazing. And yeah, as you mentioned, CBRE is a partner and we've been really lucky to have partnered with Real TechX for two years now. And I've had personal pleasure in engaging with the cohort community. It's really amazing how you know, it's such an idea in someone's head blossoms into this, you know, fully fledged company. It's really amazing to see that evolvement over time. So what role do you think startups play in bringing diversity of thoughts and ideas into organisations?
RJ:
Startups are really unique in that they have to grapple with really big problems and respond to them really quickly. They have to be able to make business decisions really rapidly and to respond to changing needs from their customers and from their potential investors really rapidly and appropriately. And so as a result of that, they tend to embrace a more diverse culture. I was reading some research last night, businesses that make responsible decisions tend to be more diverse, and whether that's gender or ethnic diversity, and we definitely see that reflected in startups. And so corporates like CBRE and any other building operator or just general corporate and occupier that work with these startups will naturally take on that diversity and that diverse and inclusive culture, and that will bring innovation to their own way of solving problems. As we know, one corporate, one business can't solve all problems, and so working in partnership with these groups is important and will continue to further the diversity.
SLT:
Yeah, amazing. And how do you ensure that, you know, when you are going through the selection process for startups, how do you ensure that there is equity in the way that they can apply or, you know, be found, as part of the process?
RJ:
Yeah, I think that's a really important question. Traditionally as a VC, I guess most of us in this industry are approached and we work with companies that come to us looking for funding or about to embark on a funding round. At Taronga we understand that different founders have different ways of operating; men operate differently to women and different ethnicities have different ways of interacting. And so we're out there in the market actively seeking different founders and different organisations that meet the requirements of our investors.
SLT:
Yeah, amazing. So what sort of emerging technologies that you've seen through the Real TechX program do you see having an impact on that 'S' in ESG?
RJ:
'S' is really interesting. Traditionally, I think as a community, but also as a real assets industry, we've addressed environmental because it's quantitative, we can see it, we can touch the waste. We know we are consuming energy, there's lights that are being powered. So it's been really easy to address, but the 'S' has tended to be more fluffy and more emotional and harder to put your hands on. And there's less quantifiable parts of it. And so because it's qualitative, it's easy to just sort of work around it. But as I guess a community, we're starting to address the social more. Covid has definitely sort of pushed us forward to needing to think about our people and the community and not just the health of those people, but also the safety of those people. And if we have an office, for example, how do we promote coming back to work and collaborating. We're seeing a lot of technology that's starting to come out now that makes our spaces more accessible to lots of different people. Whether that's, I mean, most of our spaces have traditionally been designed for able-bodied people. How do we open those spaces up that already exist? Something like 85% of the buildings that are going to be here in 2040 are already built. So we need to be able to not just retrofit them for climate change and emission reduction, but also for a changing society. So we're seeing technologies come out that help those that might be verbally or audibly or visually impaired or might have sensory overload challenges and making the spaces more accessible to them. We're also seeing, uh, organisations that might be just filtering the air to remove some of those contagions. Covid obviously made us all aware of what was in the air and how healthy we were, and so how do we use those technologies to make our spaces safer for our people and to promote that wellness. And on a more simplistic level, we've got lots of sensors that are coming out now that track the temperature, the light and the general ambience of that space to promote productivity for our people. And again, how do we leverage those to improve the wellness and productivity of the space for our people. So lots of different components of the s that are being addressed, I guess.
SLT:
So you made a point around that 'E' was kind of the easier one because it's quantifiable and measurable. Is there technologies that will now come in that will look to measure the impact of social impact?
RJ:
So in our current cohort, we've got an organisation called the Social Value Portal. And they do exactly that. They try and put a metric, um, and a dollar value on the social value that's being returned. So for example, if we build a new private hospital and we have additional beds in a community, what pressure is that taking off the public system and what's that worth to the community? So starting to answer a lot of those questions as we know, the balance sheet is all in numbers and a business case is dependent on dollars. So how do we translate that value? And so there's a lot of systems that are coming out and Social Value Portal is one of those that's been born out of the European environment where there's actually a regulatory framework for doing this.
SLT:
And do you see that, you know, that could have an impact and say, I would imagine like in New South Wales, for example, the government might put in more measurements that is like double or triple line reporting on social impact?
RJ:
Yeah, definitely. I think it's a way off. I think as a nation, we're still grappling with legislating greenwashing. I think social is definitely the next frontier, especially in terms of regulation. We've got some of those benchmarks in Europe. We've got that framework for how to disclose and how to talk about social impact and social value in Europe. And we can sort of bring some of that over here. But I wouldn't say to corporates, don't move on this until it's regulated. It's still a little bit away. So if you can quantify your value, it makes the conversation easier, it makes the business case easier. So, you know, regulation is always going to be behind the corporate, so keep pushing and keep leading.
SLT:
Yeah, for sure. And so, you know, Covid, as we return to life post covid, businesses want to foster feelings of connectedness in the community, they want to have authenticity and belonging in their workforce. What role do you think technology has to play in that?
RJ:
Yeah, I think technology touches every aspect of being a person operating within a corporate and contributing to a community. Technology allows us as individuals to work flexibly when we want to work from home or work in the office or, or work at, I don't know, some shared space that might be in between both of them. Technology allows us to stay connected as a workforce. But it, it also, as you said, it promotes that connectivity between people and it builds that community feeling. I was just talking earlier about this one app that if you're in a corporate, you can sign up to this app and all each of your employees can sign up to it. And if you are generating electricity through solar or whatever that is on your house, you can register that solar system with the app and, and you can send it to your friend down the road. So you might say to me, "Hey Bec, I know you've got a solar panel. Can I buy some of your solar?" And I can track how much I'm selling to you. We can have an agreed rate for that transfer and you might be able to cool your house for an entire day based on the additional solar that I'm generating. If I'm out of the house, for example, I might choose to sell it because I know I'm not going to consume it and it'll get lost in the grid. And so all of a sudden we've got this community of employees that are trying to tackle climate change and trying to reduce their emissions, but also in a really tangible way, sharing the benefits of what they're doing in their own home. And, and you build this community around a common goal and a common project, but also interactive and directly sharing in an indirect way with each other.
SLT:
I can't imagine kind of going into an app and trying to sell solar credits. We're actually going through the process of putting solar panels on our house as well. So that's a really interesting concept, you know, taking that sort of gig economy Uber-ising, but really taking that. I even saw my Instagram feed today they've decided to start swapping swimming pools. So hiring out your swimming pool if you have one exclusively for like a day or an hour, which makes total sense, right? Like why does everybody need a pool in their home, for example. So I suppose finally, how do you think technology can support communities coming together? You know, that inclusivity part, how do we make sure that everybody feels safe and connected in their communities and their precincts? How can technology play a role in that?
RJ:
Another big question, but I might zero in on the idea of safety there. We've got one company, Power Stack, and they're essentially a pole that you can pick up and take anywhere and it's got a battery in it, it's covered in solar panels, but you can connect security cameras, thermal cameras, lights to this pole. And so potentially councils could take these poles and it's non-invasive, there's no cabling. So put them up really easily along a running path. And then you remove that fear of violence, you start to remove the ability for people to hide in the shadows and to threaten one another. And you open up spaces to groups of the community that otherwise might have felt unsafe in that space. And so by using this really simple technology, you can drive deterrence and you can increase that feeling of safety in the community and open up some of those spaces that otherwise are unavailable in the maybe night time hours.
SLT:
I think with that as well, with the solar pole, I think I've actually seen it. It's also really easy to install as well. So it doesn't require all of the normal digging and excavating and establishment of the solar pole . So I suppose that can then increase the ability to put those lights in in lots of different areas as well.
RJ:
Yeah, absolutely. And I mean the really great thing about it is as well, if we have a part of a community that's isolated because of a natural disaster or whatever that is, we can deploy power to them really easily, where they might have not had lights, they might have had looting, so we've got security cameras, or they might have not had the ability to charge their phone. All of a sudden we've got these really easily deployed power poles that can reduce the burden of that really traumatic situation. There's a framework out of Harvard, which is called the Impact Weighted Accounting framework. And they've got an open source methodology that allows you to run different scenarios and to calculate the social value that's associated with a project. So for example, if we deployed the power poles in a disaster zone and we provided X number of people with lighting and we avoided looting, what does that social value look like? There are algorithms out there and frameworks out there that define how to do that. The way that Social Value Portal will do it is in their IP. So I'm not privy to exactly how they do that, but they lean on the EU framework for calculating and defining that. The great thing about both those frameworks is they're both totally auditable. So you can come back in three years and figure out how you've calculated that value and why. There's so many frameworks out there that people have developed themselves. I mean, Australian Unity for example, have their own internal calculation, which is like super complicated and really impressive. So I think the question is less how do we calculate it? Because there's defined ways of doing it and really super smart people have figured that out. Smarter people than me, but what's the right framework for us to all do it because we want to talk the same way, right? I mean EBITDA (Earnings Before Interest, Taxes, Depreciation, and Amortisation) f or example, there's so many different ways of doing it, but it's all written down. We know exactly how an organisation's got to their position of EBITDA. So I think social value needs to be the same.
SLT:
And so do you think we'll get there anytime soon? You know, kind of getting to a standardisation of measurement?
RJ:
Yeah, I do. I think we've got an increasing culture of accountability. We've got a consumer that's increasingly aware of the impact of the products they're purchasing, they're increasingly aware of where super's going. And so I think that as that culture of accountability drives up and ramps up, and it is definitely already filtering into the social space, we are going to see some sort of global movement towards a commonality and a common approach for that.
SLT:
Yeah because I think the way that we are at CBRE, and I'm sure it's common across most organisations, is we're looking at a diversified supplier network, for example. So, you know, ensuring that the suppliers that we have meet a certain standard or of diversity, you know, indigenous suppliers and so on. So do you see that the social value impact will spread across a breadth of categories if you like?
RJ:
It's going to be about any kind of scenario you can think about. So it's going to be what are those minorities that are employed in my supply chain? What's the value of the activation project that I have in my lobby today? How am I driving increased community value by opening my building to the community and giving them a common and safe space? Is it philanthropy? What is it? There's going to be lots of different scenarios around how corporates can deliver value to the community and then how they can quantify and talk about what that value actually is.
SLT:
Yeah. And as we see that, you know, as the generations move through, I feel like the younger generations coming into workplaces now have such a high expectation of, you know, the values that they want to align themselves with. So I think something like having a social value, let's say it's a calculation or a framework in which you could measure that will certainly be an attractant to employees coming through.
RJ:
Yeah, and I think you just touched on something really interesting there. It's the idea of having that value base and articulating actually what those values are. We've got the sustainable development goals and there's 17 of them and one company cannot address every single sustainable development goal. We generally choose three to five and we work towards those. And so, like you said, the next generation are going to try and align their employment and those that they're spending 40, 50 hours a week contributing to with their own value proposition, being able to talk in terms of those values and the impact driver is going to be super important. The accounting is obviously really important to make sure that we're actually doing what we're saying, but articulating actually, what are the values? You know, one company might participate in volunteering to protect coastal degradation for example, and another might volunteer in a soup kitchen. And that is in terms of alignment of their own value proposition and the values that are important to their people. Yeah, you're totally right. It's about being able to zero in on what those important values are and then how do we address that and then how do we account for the impact associated with addressing those.
SLT:
I think it's also just about like comparing apples to apples, right? Yeah. Every company has its own kind of corporate values at the moment. There's no way to sort of measure that between, you know a blue company and a red company. You know, if they say that I value diversity, what does that actually mean and how are they actually implementing it? But if you've got a common framework and a common definition of those, that makes it a much easier conversation to have. Because you're talking about the same thing
RJ:
In Europe, for example. If you are looking to say that you have a green investment, you map your investment to the 17 sustainable development goals. And so all of a sudden we are using the same language, we're using the same framework. We're thinking about problems in the same way and we're not confusing people with lots of different words. We're not confusing people with lots of different acronyms because absolutely the ESG space is full of acronyms. So how do we talk in a clean, direct way?
SLT:
Yeah. That really drives, you know, this whole conversation around, it's the how do we make things equitable, but also what's the economics that drives that behind our scenes.
RJ:
Absolutely. Yeah. And then, you know, the accessibility of language and yeah. You're totally right.
SLT:
Okay, I think that's it for, that's a wrap for us. So thanks for joining us today. I've certainly learned a lot about that and I'm going to go and find out about those 17 sustainable development goals.
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