Kathryn House
Hello and welcome to Talking Property with CBRE. I'm Kathryn House, your podcast host, and in this episode I'm checking in with Australian hotel entrepreneur Paul Fischmann of 8Hotels.
Paul Fischmann
There were certainly deals that I signed that I had a funny feeling about that I knew that I was going to have to climb a mountain to make them work and to even just to get out of them alive.
Kathryn House
Paul has a fascinating story. He started his career straight out of school, began running boarding houses and hostels before launching his boutique hotel group. Some of his other ventures include Unyoked, which builds off the grid wilderness cabins, and Typsy, an online hospitality training platform.
Wayne Bunz
I always believe that what you put out in this world is what you get back. I mean, Paul talks about luck and I was very lucky and fortunate that as a hotel GM, my hotel was sold and I became a hotel broker. And I've managed to meet so many amazing people like Paul. You know, it's a really lifelong journey.
Kathryn House
I'm also joined by Wayne Bunz, a National Director in CBRE's Australian hotels team. Wayne recently sold Brisbane's Mantra Terrace Hotel, in which Paul was an investor. The sale to the NRL achieved a 42% uplift on its 2021 purchase price. Wayne is going to give us his take on Paul's journey, Australia's boutique hotel market and some of the latest Australian hotel investment trends. I hope you enjoy our conversation.
Kathryn House
So, Paul, welcome to Talking Property.
Paul Fischmann
Thank you Kathryn.
Kathryn House
And Wayne, welcome back to the show.
Wayne Bunz
Thanks, Kathryn. And thank you, Paul, for taking the time to share your journey with us.
Paul Fischmann
My pleasure.
Kathryn House
So, Paul, perhaps to kick us off, can you tell us how you started out? I believe it involved being mentored by a property wheeler dealer.
Paul Fischmann
I did, and I was mentored by property wheeler dealers. I was introduced, I was very luckily introduced to a guy called Michael Teplitsky. And Michael was only a few years older than me at the time. He was already doing some really incredible deals in the property space, primarily. He was building units all over Sydney. He was buying and selling commercial buildings and he also owned a hotel. And I begged him for the chance to follow him around and he eventually agreed and I spent a year with him. And the first few months of that year our offices were in this hotel. And so I got a bit of exposure to the hotel industry through this hotel. And through that period, which lasted for about 12 months, I also got exposure in property development and construction and finance. And it was a very, sort of dynamic and fast- moving environment that Michael and a whole other bunch of young and dynamic and now very, very successful project property wheeler dealers were all working together and doing some pretty special things. And so that was my entree into work and into the hotel world.
Kathryn House
It's like a property incubator.
Paul Fischmann
It was, it wasn't very corporate, but it definitely was an incubator. An incubator of sorts, definitely.
Kathryn House
So, Wayne, you've done numerous hotel deals with Paul over the years. Can you give me a sense of how much of an impact Paul has had on Australia's boutique hotel sector during his time in the industry?
Wayne Bunz
Look, I think that Paul was probably at the forefront of running smaller properties with smaller room counts and probably smaller actual size rooms. I think Paul, what was your first hotel that you had?
Paul Fischmann
Well, the first hotel that I took over was the Altamont Hotel, which was a 14- room boutique hotel in Darlinghurst, a really cool little property. But I actually had closed my first deal about a year earlier than that, which was a hotel that became the Pensione Hotel in Sydney and that was in George Street. And that came about because prior to that I had been leasing buildings and running them as backpacker hostels, and I had a few boarding houses as well. And there was massive demand coming through the backpacker hostels for private rooms. And there was this vacant building, beautiful heritage building, vacant on the upper floors, retail on the ground and the pub on the ground. And an agent friend of mine knew that I was out there looking for more buildings and he offered me the upper floors to do a backpacker hostel. And I said, well, look, let's do a hotel instead because I'm getting a lot of demand for private rooms. So, the idea was, carve up this building into as many small rooms as possible and make sure that we have ens uiteensuite bathrooms in each room. And I was sure that I would fill it up. And so that property took about four years from the first meeting to discuss it with the owners and my landlords and actually opening the hotel.
Wayne Bunz
And how many deals have you done, Paul? How many hotels have you been in and out of? Whether it was a lease or whether it was a freehold going concern and or perhaps things like Little Albion in Surry Hills that you actually designed and constructed yourself?
Paul Fischmann
You know what, I'd have to count it up, but it's 25 or more, possibly. Probably around 25 hotels.
Wayne Bunz
And it's interesting in property, you know, as agents and as observers, we often see the successful stories with hoteliers. Has it always been successful? Has there been times that you've made a decision and went, "wow, how am I going to chew hard enough to make this thing work?"
Paul Fischmann
You know what, I was really quite fortunate because when I started off, the first couple of hotels that I did were in the Darlinghurst King's Cross area and that was in the early 2000s and you had an enormous number of rooms that were taken out of the market because of the Sydney Olympics. And so, these early hotels that I opened ran really, really well. There was just a lot of demand. And then I think that the market was really strong right up until the GFC. So, as I was expanding out the business, we had a really good run. The GFC really didn't do a lot of damage to the Australian hotels. There was sort of a three to six month period, which is pretty scary. But things rebounded pretty quickly after that and so I had a good run. But yes, there were certainly deals that I signed that I had a funny feeling about that I knew that I was going to have to climb a mountain to make them work and to even just to get out of them alive, let alone on top. So, I took a lot of risk when I was young and I signed some pretty crazy leasing deals, particularly because I didn't start with any capital. And at that point there weren't many other hotel owners that wanted me to manage hotels for them. So, in order for me to grow a footprint, I had to be prepared to take on the risk of leasing, which I did. And I managed to get out of everything really quite nicely. But there were definitely some scary times and some massive challenges. And every deal that I did has a really interesting story behind it, how it happened and how I got my hands on them and all of that. So, when I look back, it was really a very colourful career.
Kathryn House
So you've run some of the country's best known boutique hotels. The Kirkton in Darlinghurst, the heritage listed 1888 Hotel in Pyrmont, the Felix Hotel near Sydney Airport. What do you think was your best investment? You've obviously climbed some mountains, but what was the most successful climb?
Paul Fischmann
You know, they really were all different and it's quite hard to answer that question as a general question. You know, obviously some were financially better than others, some I enjoyed more than others. Which one was the most? I mean, it's really hard to answer.
Wayne Bunz
Paul, I want to jump in and ask a question. There you were, Paul Fischmann of 8Hotels. Where did the eight come from? Hotel 1888 and I want to talk about your telephone number.
Paul Fischmann
Yes, yes no, the telephone Number had a massive part in why the business is called eight Hotels. But there's a few reasons. So many, many years, even before I started in the hotel stuff I was doing, the backpackers and mobile phones were still a fairly new thing. And I had a problem with the phone company. And I rung them up and I said, I want a new number. And they offered me a number. I said, not good enough. And then they offered me another one and I said, no, not good enough. I was just playing cool. And then they offered me this number that has lots of eights and threes in it. So I took it, not knowing that the eight represented sort of luck and fortune in feng shui with the Chinese. And some years later, when I was sitting negotiating the deal that became the Pensione Hotel, I had a Chinese landlord, developer, and they, at the end of the first meeting, I think, were fairly impressed with me. But when they asked for my contact details and I showed them my number, they said, "oh, you have a very lucky number". And I actually think that that went some way into helping me secure the deal. But what clinched the deal was that I needed some funds, I needed some capital for this deal. And I had approached somebody who I became close with and still very, very close with, a man named Warwick Susskind. And Warwick had a fashion company called Table Eight.
Kathryn House
Ah, yes, I used to buy Table Eight clothes.
Paul Fischmann
Exactly. Yes. It was a big, big business. And Warwick became my partner in that hotel. And so when I decided, after I had acquired three different boutique hotels with three different names and I decided that I wanted to build out a hotel management company, I thought I should put a sort of an umbrella brand over the three hotels that I had. And I came up with three name 8Hotels. And that's how it happened.
Kathryn House
So you've been a bit of a trendsetter in the boutique hotel space. You mentioned 1888 before, world's first Instagram hotel, when it launched in 2012,- 2013. So, there were Instagram images taken by guests, free nights to anyone who posted stuff who had more than 10,000 followers. At Felix, you established it as a plane spotters’ heaven with telescopes to get an even closer view of the airport. How important is it, do you think, to have a point of difference in the hotel game?
Paul Fischmann
Look, first of all, I'd say that a lot of the stuff that we did was really through necessity and luck rather than strategy, particularly in the early days. But as I got more experience and I was able to craft the hotels, obviously, particularly the new hotels, but even refurbish some of the older hotels, I started coming up with the idea of trying to create a bit of a story in my mind behind the hotel and then use that story to design and to give a bit of a soul to the hotel. And that was really, though just then, sort of a personal thing that I got a kick out of doing. And so those hotels that you mentioned, for example, 1888, the name of the building was a beautiful old heritage wool store building that was built in 1888 and had a sign up there. And the eights were obviously quite special to me. But we sort of took the, the expression of the old Sydney 1800s kind of feel and look and, and so the marketing and everything else developed in that way. And then the design, the interior design sort of went along with that. But the Instagram thing was just a very clever PR firm that I used and Instagram was just becoming a thing. And then they suggested that we should have this Instagram campaign. And I knew very little about Instagram at the time because it was 2013, I think it was, but it was the right place at the right time. So the world's press picked it up as the world's first Instagram hotel, whatever that means. It didn't actually mean anything.
Kathryn House
You've got to have a world first is awesome.
Paul Fischmann
Exactly. You, you know, exactly Kathryn. As a journalist, you know, but what happened was that within the space of a few weeks, every major news organisation on the planet was writing about this hotel. So it was very, very lucky, very fortunate. It was a really beautiful hotel.
Kathryn House
And free marketing.
Paul Fischmann
Totally free marketing. Totally free marketing. But the guests love the hotel because it was a really, it was a gorgeous hotel. And by then, I mean, even in the early days, culturally, we had developed a really great business and people loved working with 8Hotels. And so that feeling came through to our guests and it was, it was very, very quickly, very, very successful. And the Felix Hotel, we asked the architect to come up with sort of a look and feel for the exterior and they just, for whatever reason came up with this kind of 1950s, 60s looking building, which was quite interesting considering it was 2015 or whatever it was that we started on it. And then from then I thought, "oh, well, what if we did like make the theme like the golden years of flying in the 1960s". And, and one of our partners, his name was Felix, and I thought, wow, Felix is a great name for that. And so he didn't want it to be called Felix. But I said, "no, no, no, we're calling it Felix". Then if you looked at the marketing that we did back then and that the design and everything else, it was all based around that theme and all the collateral was based around that. So, it was a mixture of just luck and also creating a bit of a story behind each hotel before we embarked on it.
Kathryn House
So, Wayne, what are your thoughts on that front? Do you know, is there a secret sauce in making a boutique hotel successful?
Wayne Bunz
Look, the first thing I want to say to Paul is he's mentioned the word luck and right time, right place, you know, that's all very relevant. We all enjoy that success. But he's also a very smart entrepreneurial, thought provoking and doing things and backing himself when probably many others didn't. And you know, the word boutique hotel can be very overused. I mean, Paul's hotels were very extreme and very boutique, but he was also a very good operator and learned very quickly. I suppose one of the successes I want to say to Paul, and we've got a lot of people listening to this podcast, we hope, that are in the real estate sector, whether they be in hotels or not. I think what Paul exemplifies is that no market ever runs forever. We all think it does. No market in Sydney is the same year on year, decade on decade, Melbourne and Brisbane. And Paul has played in all of those three markets. And you know, whilst I'm sure sometimes he says he might have sold an asset too early, I think Paul's philosophy of leaving a drink in it for the next bloke is very important. And I think, Paul, we should expand on that. And also noting a lot of my clients, I say, are really good hotel buyers, but they may be very poor hotel sellers and what I mean is they don't take advantage of the market. And Paul, if you could talk us about a great journey, because you owned a hotel, the first deal we did was a hotel in Brisbane that we sold at the right time, at the right place. And then several years later we came back, and I brought that opportunity to you to buy it back at a different time in a different market circumstance. And then we came to you, which we're talking about is the Mantra Terrace Hotel. We recently sold it for you. So, if you could just talk about your success of looking at markets in and out, being the right buyer and the right seller, and how you came to be back into an asset that you had owned and sold.
Paul Fischmann
Well, that hotel actually has a really interesting story and I'll just give you the full background to it. I had a number of hotels in Sydney, Melbourne and Canberra. I was really wanting to be in Brisbane. This was around 2009 or something like that. I went up to Brisbane. Bunzy, I didn't meet you at that point, but I did meet a great guy called Rick Bird, who was a director, I think, of Ray White at the time. And Rick was fantastic. He took me around and we looked at a whole bunch of opportunities. And Rick was doing his own development stuff as well with Scott Hutchinson. And long story short, we didn't find anything. But some months later, Rick rung me and said, Paul, Scott and I have just bought a site. We're going to build a hotel for you. And we started negotiating for me to lease that property. And I couldn't get to the level that Rick and Scott wanted me to get to. But more importantly, there was another bloke that was prepared to get to that level. So very disappointing for me, but a deal was done with this other guy, but I knew that he wouldn't make it work. And it wasn't long after that, maybe a year or so after he opened, that he came to me, the tenant, and said, look, do you want to take this on? And there's a huge, long story behind all of that, but ultimately, I did. And then Rick and Scott decided that they wanted to sell the hotel. And because I had a very long lease, I became the obvious buyer, and we did a deal for me to buy that hotel. But then the market changed in Brisbane, to your point, Bunzy. And it changed pretty quickly because it was the end of the mining construction boom that happened in Queensland. And then Bunzy came along with a good deal, very good deal. And I grabbed it and sold that hotel. And a few years later, the guy that I sold that hotel to during COVID decided to put it back onto the market. And Bunzy rung me, and of course, I knew the asset really, really well. So, we grabbed it really quickly. And I had a couple of partners with me and that, because they had introduced me to another deal that we were looking at that Bunzy was selling, I ultimately decided to not go along with that. But because we were in that one together, I bought these guys who I do business with together. And then we recently sold that. Bunzy sold it again. So, we sold it, we bought it ,and we sold it. And it's been a good couple of deals.
Kathryn House
So, Wayne, bought by the NRL, which I found quite interesting. One of their latest hotel acquisitions. Are we seeing more new players like the NRL getting into hotel ownership?
Wayne Bunz
Look, I don't want to comment on the NRL strategies, but obviously they're trying to diversify income streams and buying hotels, you know, close by their locations where they're playing football, there areis always new entrants coming into the market. I mean, I always think of the RACV. People would think, you know, the Royal Automobile Club of Victoria, you know, sooner or rather than later, they won't have members because they won't have cars breaking down because we'll all have electric cars. They're a great example of an organisation that has diversified into other assets and now own a substantial list of assets and leisure destinations through New South Wales, Queensland and particularly Victoria, where their membership database gets to access. So, the good thing about the hotel industry, it's always sexy, it's always exciting and there's always new investors that want to come and play. You know, when we found Ghassan Aboud, who ended up buying Paul's hotel in Surry Hills and, you know, poured $600 million into the economy of Cairns, it's great that we're always looking for new entrants to come in and, you know, the hotel industry is a pretty safe and reliable investment if you know what you're doing and you work hard. Paul, would you agree?
Paul Fischmann
Totally. There are always new entrants. It is a sexy business and so there's a lot of ego at play.
Kathryn House
Ego in real estate? No, no [laughs]
Paul Fischmann
I know, can you believe? But particularly in hotels, you have a lot of wealthy privates, who love the idea of owning hotels. But boutique hotels are difficult because they're niche and they're probably the first ones to suffer when things go a bit soft. And, by the way, I didn't have any plan to get into boutique hotels. I did fall in love with accommodation because it's just sort of where I fell into from a very early age. But I ended up in boutique hotels because they were small and because they were small, there were less people that wanted them, and I couldn't get my hands on the bigger ones. But it's tricky. . But Bunzy is right. There is often a buyer pool that may not be quite as sensitive to returns as buyers of the larger properties.
Kathryn House
So, Paul, in your career, there have been twists and turns along the way. You went from, you know, running more than 20 hotels and then you decided you wanted to change tackt. Can you talk us through that?
Paul Fischmann
Yes, yes, I can. Look, as, there were a number of reasons, and it started at the end of 2014 and there was a bit of a personal reason. I was turning 40 the following year and I thought, let's build the business for a couple of years and then at 40, work out what I want to do. And by then, a few things were becoming apparent to me. One was that the consolidation of the larger groups, that we see now is very obvious, was already starting to happen. And I could sense that the deals, particularly on the management side, were becoming more and more competitive and harder for privates and small players, like me to be able to compete with these big boys, and I thought that was going to continue. And I thought some of the deals that were being done were not great deals, but they suited these larger players because they were engineered differently to me. And so that was one reason. The other reason was, I had a nationwide, in fact we had some management contracts overseas, but a lot of staff, you know, I think we had over 500 at one point, and hotels all over from Perth to Sydney. And I was getting tired. I was getting tired, and then I think the third thing was that I realised that as much as I romantically loved the hotel industry and the management side of it and the brand building and the people side of it, I thought, you know, I think I could make a lot more money if I just focused on the real estate. And so, I decided to progressively sell down, starting in late 2014 with the Brisbane hotel that we were just talking about, being the first one. And I wanted to maintain an infrastructure, a small infrastructure, because I wanted to continue on owning and developing hotels, but not as a network. Just as deals came up, that made sense to me. And if I decided to sell, I'd sell. If I decided to hold, I'd hold. I didn't achieve that. I ended up selling everything and ended up not having an infrastructure. But that was also a very lucky break for me because it was halfway through 2019 that I sold the last hotel and then COVID hit a few months later. So that would have been very difficult.
Kathryn House
Timing is everything.
Paul Fischmann
Timing is everything. And timing is luck in most cases. And so that's what I decided to do. And I'm very comfortable with that decision. I think operating businesses, particularly in Australia, is not easy. Labour costs are high, taxes are high. Red tape is very red. So ultimately it was the right decision. I think that in order for me to have wanted to continue and to compete against the bigger players, I probably would have needed to have brought in some big capital. And I already had enough stakeholders within my world and I'm fairly independent, so I thought "oh, do I really want to bring in someone else to my orbit?" And the answer was, was no.
Kathryn House
And so you've moved in a few different directions. I mentioned Unyoked at the beginning and also Typsy. Is that what's taking up a lot of your time now? And why did you get involved with those groups?
Paul Fischmann
Yes look, these are investments that I've made behind people and ideas and the two that you mentioned are really quite exciting. Unyoked, I only have a small investment in. I wish I could have put more into that one, but the boys didn't want it. And it's run by a couple of brothers who are just really great operators and its this off grid, cabin detox technology experience. It's super authentic and very, very cool. And the guys are now in Australia, New Zealand and the UK. That's exciting. And Typsy is an online hospitality training platform and there's a remarkable CEO behind that guy called Jono Plowright. And Jono has overcome such obstacles to build a worldwide business. Customers, hotel customers from all over and restaurants and venue operators and caterers and so forth all over the world. And that's doing really, really well. And then I've also invested behind a young guy who has developed a really dynamic, up-and-coming hotel contract cleaning and linen company called Ozone Hospitality Services. And I am much more hands on with that one, because it really is very close to what I used to do with running the hotels and I'm really enjoying watching young guys named Dulanka building this business. He's a young guy and he reminds me of myself when I was at the same age. He's got a lot of grit and he's smart and he's really focused on actually providing a really great service. And that was my ethos in the hotels, was really trying to impress every guest that we had, and he does the same for his clients. So, these are just investments within sort of the space that keep me close to it and are enjoyable.
Kathryn House
So Wayne, as we start wrapping up, I really wanted to ask you about what your thoughts are on hotel investment activity this year. CBRE's latest hotel report seems to suggest that we're on track for a full recovery by the end of this year. Our latest APAC Hotel Investor Intention survey shows more investors are planning to get into this sector and Sydney was named as the second most popular city. Do you think 2025 is going to be a pivotal year for Australia's hotel market?
Wayne Bunz
Yes, look, sure. As a firm we had a number of large deals that didn't get transacted last year that have hung over into this year. So we, as a team, will be making some serious announcements in the next quarter. There's always genuine pent-up demand from buyers for hotels. The biggest challenge we have is people not wanting to trade their assets. As we know in Sydney, everybody would want to be in Sydney, but trying to convince an owner to sell. If we got a VP 'Vacant Possession' hotel in CBD Sydney, it would almost be taking a number without having to do inspections to sell it. We are experiencing the same situation in Brisbane. You know, we've been lucky that we've sold the majority of hotels in this market up here for the last eight years. Our biggest challenge is trying to convince owners to sell and meet the market. Melbourne, I think there'll be substantially more transactions in Melbourne over the coming two, three years as it continues to absorb the new supply. But I think as Paul would say, hotels genuinely can trade on sharper yields than passive investments such as retail and office. But I think Paul would agree the ability to make a far more substantial capital gain on a hotel transaction versus an asset that is purely related to the income stream sees hotels come out significantly. I remember only in 2015 or something like that when the Shangri-La Sydney sold for a circa $520,000 a key and everybody went, "oh my god, I can't believe that". You can't get into Sydney now for anything well above $1 million a key. So, I think people will always continue to be on the sidelines looking for hotel transactions. Our biggest challenge is getting the stock to sell and while they continue to sell substantially below replacement costs. I think we all agree we won't see this flurry of new supply coming into our market that we've seen in the last decade. I think there'll always be pent up demand for hotels. Paul, do you agree?
Paul Fischmann
I totally agree. I mean there's massive capital that's coming to Australia, that is in Australia and it's coming to Australia. I mean when I started out it was very different. You know, yields were at 12% or even higher. I mean interest rates were a little higher, but the amount of capital that's coming in and Australia becoming what it's become over the last sort of 20 years. There will always be demand for good assets. And I agree with Bunzy, you know, hotels or the operators or owners do have the capability of really getting some shining prices compared to sort of other traditional fixed income style asset classes which most real estate is, you know, commercial and retail, etc, industrial. But on the flip side, you can easily go the wrong way. And it obviously also depends on if you're planning on selling a hotel that you've just built. You know, do you sell the bBlue sky, or do you take the risk of the trading environment? And the trading environment is not easy. It's not easy and I don't think it's ever been easy. And at times it's unbelievably difficult. Like when September 11 happened, it was a little bit before my time, but as I said, GFC, we got through pretty easily in this country. But COVID is a perfect example. I mean it just ripped apart the business and then as things started to recover, as interest rates went up and cost of labouUr and energy and, and everything else, it's a bloody hard business. Not easy.
Kathryn House
Yes. So a few rapid fire questions for you both to finish off. Paul, what's the best advice you've ever received?
Paul Fischmann
The best advice? I can't think of one specific thing, but I've heard things over the years that have made me really think, to Bunzy's point before and the way that I've looked at coming in and out of deals. Nathan Rothschild supposedly, hundreds of years ago, but supposedly said to a question put to him which was what is the secret of his success? He said, I always sold too early. And I like that because if you believe as I do that there is always another opportunity. Literally deals are like buses, but you have to believe that, that it's true. And the other one I think is a quote that I heard also from, I think it was Woody Allen who said it, that 80% of success is just showing up. And there's a deeper meaning behind that to me. But it basically says you've got to show up and you've got to ask for what you want. And if you don't show up and ask, you're definitely not going to get. And I think the rest of it is just grit and luck.
Kathryn House
What about you, Wayne?
Wayne Bunz
I always believe that what you put out in this world is what you get back. I mean, Paul talks about luck and I was very lucky and fortunate that as a hotel GM, mMy hotel was sold, and I became a hotel broker. And I've managed to meet so many amazing people like Paul, you know, it's a really lifelong journey. So, I think it's all about what you put out in this world is what you get back. I think for being a successful property person, it's good if you can manage to hold on to everything you have, we all wish that. We all wish we still had the first house, the second house, the third house. We'd all be gazillionaires. But I think, to Paul's point, I remember there was an industry stalwart called John Hudson, when I was very young in hotel brokerage. And I remember him saying that we were a really good buyer, but we were terrible sellers. So, I think there are. I see this a lot, greed. You know, during COVID there were was assets in regional locations that enjoyed the best trading periods they ever had. And you couldn't convince them to sell because they believed that that run would continue forever. No market runs forever. And if you can, you're never going to pick the highs, you're never going to pick the lows, but if you can absolutely try and get the tide, you won't get it at full tide, but if you can try and get the right tide, you can make a lot of money.
Kathryn House
Well, Wayne, thank you so much for joining me again on Talking Property.
Wayne Bunz
My pleasure, Kathryn. I really want to thank Paul. You've become a really good friend, Paul. I love your loyalty to CBREcbre. I love your loyalty to me. I love your circle of friends who also share your loyalty and continued success to you, my friend, congratulations.
Paul Fischmann
Thank you, mate. The feeling is mutual, as you know, and hopefully we'll do many more, but if not, we remain great mates.
Kathryn House
Well, thanks very much, Paul. It was really great to chat to you and I can't wait to see what's next.
Paul Fischmann
Thanks, Kathryn.
Kathryn House
We've got some great episodes coming up, so make sure to follow Talking Property wherever you get your podcasts. We'd also love it if you could rate or review Talking Property to help spread the word. And if you have any questions or feedback, you can drop me a note at any time via
[email protected]. Until next time.
