Kathryn House
Hello, and welcome to Talking Property with CBRE. I'm your host, Kathryn House, and for this latest episode, I'll be talking to leading futurist, bestselling author, and change strategist, Michael McQueen.
Michael McQueen
From a, like a property standpoint, I think we've got to address one of these built in assumptions we often have that younger generations are much more comfortable with tech and so therefore, let's just empower them with tech. And we maybe need less square footage or less square metres per staff member because we've got more people working remotely. Interestingly, the data is showing us, and we've seen this for a couple of years now, but it's starting to really coalesce around this theme, they are missing connection.
Kathryn House
That's a taste of what to expect from Michael, who was recently ranked #11 among the world's leading futurists. Michael has worked with the likes of Toyota, Mastercard, Pepsi, Adidas, and Google, helping them navigate disruption, maintain momentum, and future proof their strategies. Amid all the current global uncertainty, be it the impact of AI through to current world events, I thought it was an ideal time to swing away from our usual property topics to get Michael's views on how to navigate uncertain times and lead through disruption. I was also keen to delve into his views on the psychology of stubbornness and why smart people don't change even when they want to and know they should. I hope you enjoy our conversation. Michael, thanks for joining Talking Property and for coming into our Sydney podcast studio.
Michael McQueen
My pleasure. Great to spend some time chatting.
Kathryn House
So, Michael, you've spoken at several CBRE events, and you've always struck a chord with our people and clients. Perhaps to kick us off, I've heard you quote a legendary business thinker, Gary Hamill, and his famous phrase, "you can't outrun the future if you don't see it coming". But how can businesses stay future ready when change seems to be happening at hyper speed?
Michael McQueen
Yeah. I mean, that's honestly half the challenge, isn't it? And it's trying to figure out what are the things to pay attention to, what's actually relevant as opposed to a distraction, because there's so much changing so quickly, and the media hype tends to gravitate around things that make good headlines but aren't actually going to be a game changer. So for me, that's part of my biggest challenge, but also the main focus of my work is trying to cut through the hype. And there's different ways to think about this. So separating signals from noise. What are the signals that actually count as opposed to background noise that you can get distracted by? Another metaphor I like to use is to look at tides versus waves.
Kathryn House
Yes.
Michael McQueen
Tides are like the silent, slow-moving changes that are fundamental, and you can't ignore them. They'll change the whole shape of the coastline. The waves are the fads that come and go. And so it's really important right now, firstly, that we don't just check out because it's all too overwhelming and too hard, but also that we don't get distracted by the temporary fads, because there's a lot of that going on especially with AI.
Kathryn House
Yes.
Michael McQueen
Lots of hype about AI, but there's also some stuff happening that is tidal in nature. Like, it is properly game changing. So it's really trying to stay attuned to that and look at what are the trends that we can't afford to get caught off guard by.
Kathryn House
Yes. Well, I definitely want to get into talking about AI a little later on. But there was something that I saw when I was looking at your LinkedIn feed, and you spend a lot of your life at conferences
Michael McQueen
I do.
Kathryn House
As a speaker. And the other day, I believe you heard a turn of phrase that you haven't come across before. It was the chief investment strategist at Pinnacle Investments describing some of the opportunities currently attracting attention as little more than a "bug in search of a windscreen". So why did that resonate with you?
Michael McQueen
I just love the image of it. I mean, this idea of, you know, things that can, in the short term, seem like a massive opportunity; it's almost too good to be true, generally is. And I think, you know, at the moment, when there is so much uncertainty, people will often grab at whatever seems to be the most immediate solution for their challenge. And so while that can be tempting at times, there are so many risks in that as well. So I think his advice from a financial standpoint was play the long game, make sure you're staying with the fundamentals, stay connected to sources of information you trust. Trust is obviously so important. The context of that was around some very interesting investments that are a little bit like the subprime mortgage crisis we saw leading up to the GFC. There are elements of that beginning to emerge. And he just said that we're seeing a lot of hype around this, and it can seem attractive in the short term. But in the long term, what's the impact of this gonna be? And I think that's probably a very useful thing to keep front of mind for all of us is if you're playing a long game, that has a huge impact on the decisions you make.
Kathryn House
Yes.
Michael McQueen
Where you invest, how readily you invest in technologies, in your approaches. I mean, there are a lot of things right now, again, from a tech perspective that can give you a a quick uplift. I'm seeing leaders using some amazing AI tools. But if it erodes trust and if it eats away at the culture of your organisation and we're seeing this especially with remote work. These very clever tools for monitoring things like keystrokes and
Kathryn House
Yes.
Michael McQueen
Times on-site, how active and engaged are you. There's even an example from, Burger King. I saw they've just rolled out a technology. It's basically a recording device in here. So they're monitoring their staff to see how they're using manners. Please and thank you.
Kathryn House
So Big Brother is watching.
Michael McQueen
Very much. If you're working at Burger King in the States, Big Brother's watching and it gives coaching. So it's like an in ear, AI coach that, like, you know, how do you become more effective at giving good customer service. At face value, like, that might give you some uplift in terms of your results, how good your staff are at drive-through. But if it erodes any sense of agency and the trust, I'm just trusted to do my job because I'm a sensible human or I've been given a job and trainees about to do that. You might get the short-term uplift, but what's the long-term impact? I think that's a useful frame for all of us to keep front of mind.
Kathryn House
Absolutely. So, talking about being future ready. As a futurist, and this is probably a big question, but can you tell me the top two trends that you believe will define 2026?
Michael McQueen
Yeah. It's hard to even come up with two because there are so many that I'm watching pretty closely right now.
Kathryn House
I'll give you a few more than two.
Michael McQueen
But if we did go two, I mean, the first one, I think, is AI, particularly the use of AI agents. In fact, just before we hit record today, I was reading an article. So we've just had Jensen Huang, who's the CEO of NVIDIA, presented a big technology conference in the last hour. And so he gave his sort of the state of play for AI at the moment, and his big focus for NVIDIA is to move away from GPUs, which is the chips they've been using that's powered much of the AI we've used for the last few years, towards specific racks for AI agents. And so he used some terms that I somewhat understand. I'm not a techie. I look at the impact of the tech on strategy. So I won't get techie. But he talked about OpenClaw, which is essentially a platform which is designed for designing personal agents or agentic AI. And the way he described it, he said this is as big as HTML. This is big as the development of personal computing. And I'm reading this thinking, I haven't developed an AI agent yet on OpenCore. And so
Kathryn House
I've been thinking about it.
Michael McQueen
Thinking about it. And I'm literally reading before I jump in the lift to come up for our chat now thinking I need to just jump on to whatever, probably YouTube, and just watch a clip. How do I develop or build an AI agent? Because that is something that I've read about, and it's one thing to read about. It's one thing to look at the commentary. It's another thing to just get your hands dirty and give it a go. And so NVIDIA are looking at technology to make these sort of platforms far more secure, so develop an AI agent that's going to be less invasive around privacy. So I'm encouraged by that because my first readings of stuff with OpenClaw was like, this is terrifying. Like access to essentially, the back-end systems, everything in your life and your world. And we did see some agents last week break out and essentially leak passwords and buy some cryptocurrency, like, just go a bit rogue. So it is a bit of the Wild West. So I think NVIDIA really focused on that from a security standpoint, I thought it was interesting. So that'd be probably the big trend. Last year, 2025, was meant to be the year of the AI agents. It sort of didn't come to fruition as much as we thought last year, so I think this year, that'll be one to watch. The other big trend is probably around the people side of things. We are seeing a lot more of an emphasis on that Gen Zed or Gen Z cohort who are, I think we'll probably get to the point by end of this year, end of 2026, they'll be anywhere between thirty-four, thirty five percent of the labour market. And so there's a lot of organisations I'm working with who are struggling with, how do we engage that group? They are not just your future talent, they are your current talent, and they are so different. And they're different in some really exciting ways. They're very innovative. They're adaptable. Many of them are pretty tech savvy. And one of the things I'm noticing at the moment that a lot of my clients are struggling with is, this is a generation who actually don't like working remotely.
Kathryn House
I read you talking about that. And I was going to ask you that question because I think everyone maybe has that natural assumption.
Michael McQueen
Yeah. That we assume. I mean, they're digital native. Surely, they'd be fine to work remotely and do everything online. And so they want flexibility. There's no doubt about that. But their appetite for being physically together is higher than it would be for Gen X's and Baby Boomers, and certainly even for Millennials as well. And so from a, like a property standpoint, I think we've got to address one of these built in assumptions we often have that younger generations are much more comfortable with tech. And so, therefore, let's just empower them with tech, and we maybe need less square footage or less square metres per staff member because we got more people working remotely. Interestingly, the data is showing us, and we've seen this for a couple of years now, but it stands to really coalesce around this theme, they are missing connection, friendships, mentoring, apprenticeship. I mean, you learn so much in those early years of your career by being around your team and your leaders. And that's how career progression often happens.
Kathryn House
Well, it's also the subliminal part of it. So things that you actually don't even realise that you're potentially picking up just by listening to people and what they're saying on the phone, the conversations that they're having.
Michael McQueen
Yep. Well and because we even saw in the last few days, I think it's now that Zoom have rolled this out. Teams did it about 14, 15 months ago. Avatars. So you can actually develop your own avatar to essentially join video calls so you don't have to have your video on, but you still have a representative of you, like a deep fake of you in the video call. And so I read this, and I think, oh, it's all very clever. But, gosh, it just is another step of removing any sense of human contact, human connection. And, you know, one of the other, if you ask me to list the next few trends after the top two, in that top five would be trust. How important trust is in an era where truth has become very elastic. We're seeing the trust in leaders, in organisations, in political leaders. In many contexts, it's cratering. You know, Edelman's Trust Barometer each year makes it very clear that that's the case. And so it's hard to build trust when you're working remotely. I mean, we had the choice to do this interview remotely, and we could. I mean, I'm only 15, 20 minutes' drive from here. But if you got the choice, this is better.
Kathryn House
Oh, it is, it absolutely is.
Michael McQueen
I just think it's better. And then I have moments to think is it because I'm really old school, maybe because I'm getting old now. But I actually just think it's a fundamentally human thing. You know, we've met on a team's call week before last, but you don't really get someone's vibe. You don't really understand. I often use the term listening through, not listening to. When you listen through someone's questions, what do they really mean? What's the subtext they're not telling you? And we pick that up organically. We pick that up, often unconsciously. It is a vibe. And it's really hard to get that remotely. In fact, some work around, the importance of oxytocin, which is the trust hormone. So, essentially, we have this chemical released in our brains, and our hearts are somewhat responsible for releasing it as well because our hearts have a nervous system as well. And what basically this is, it's the trust hormone. So when you're with someone and you're like, I just vibed with that person, I jelled with them, I clicked, that's because oxytocin was released. And it's so unconscious you don't know its happening. And being physically together and the importance of things like vulnerability, transparency, that's what triggers oxytocin. And, you know, you leave a conversation sometimes, you're like, oh, that person said all the right things, but I just didn't click with them. I don't know what that was. It was a lack of oxytocin. You literally didn't warm to that person. So, from a trust perspective for leaders being physically together matters because that's when so much of those points of commonality and the point where oxytocin was released, that's when it happens. That's when relationships form. And we know, and there's evidence for decades, long before COVID, that relationships, a sense of belonging, is critical for engagement. And so I think for Gen Z, we're seeing that even more so.
Kathryn House
So, talking about leaders and being future ready. What's your best advice for leaders at the moment when there is so much change happening? How do they stay future ready and relevant, you know, and lead with clarity?
Michael McQueen
Yeah. You might be surprised at my answer. So my answer to this is to not necessarily lean too much on prediction, because that's our natural response. When we don't know what the future is gonna hold, we try and grasp it, have clarity, control the variables by getting as much data, as many experts as possible, read as many McKinsey studies as there are so we can be really aware of what's coming. And that's value in not being caught off guard. And to Gary Hamill's point, which you said before, you can't outrun the future if you don't see it coming. But, I've seen this so often over the years, predicting the future isn't enough.
Kathryn House
Yes.
Michael McQueen
And so many of us spend so much time there. I think we miss the main point because it's not as much about prediction as it is about being prepared, about that posture of readiness. And I often share that the best lesson I've ever learned about what it takes to be future ready, I learned from the world of tennis. So I was speaking at an event years ago now, the Australian Open. There was an Australian Open, like, gathering of all the CEOs of the sponsor companies. And so I was speaking at this event, and one of the other speakers was a recently retired singles player, and she'd been a top seeded player. She was there sharing her story about tennis and her journey in tennis. And one of the CEOs asked the question, what's the difference between an elite player and a championship player? I mean, everyone on the AO court is excellent. They're elite because they wouldn't be there if they weren't. But who wins on the day? Why is that? What are the key differentiating factors? And she said it's not always about things like their serve, their accuracy, or their backhand, or even their fitness levels. So one of the biggest determining factors is how well you can master the ready position, consistently, on the day, on the court. And the ready position is that position you see, its open posture, it's leaning forward, and its active feet. And it means no matter what gets served down the court, they can move fast. They can react. And I think that's a useful metaphor right now for all of us is that you can have an educated guess as to what's coming your way, you know, and tennis players will have that. And if they've played against that play before, they sort of know what they tend to do. You can have an educated guess, but none of us really knows exactly what's gonna come down the court. What we've gotta make sure is that we are ready. And so a lot of the research I've been doing recently is around what is the mental posture required to be ready for the future. And so there are sort of three elements that stand out when I look at the clients I've worked with who have done that well, have been consistently ready and able to adapt. Audacity, being able to be bold and lean in, take risks, and not shrink back. Educated risks, but risks no less.
Kathryn House
Yes.
Michael McQueen
Now we often play a game that's far too safe. And I think when we're confronted with uncertainty, often our natural response is to hesitate, to hold back. Let's just wait and see how this plays out. And that can feel like prudence or sensibleness, but it's actually, in some cases, incredibly dangerous right now because that paralysis of hesitation can cost you opportunities. So audacity is the first one. Second is humility. How important being humble is. Because humility isn't about celebrating not knowing things or celebrating ignorance. It's about not knowing less, but it's about assuming less. So holding our assumptions with less certainty. Because I think right now, obviously, things are changing so rapidly. If you're clinging to what worked three years ago and because it's always worked, it's always going to work. That's such dangerous territory right now. So humility is so important so we can be willing to update our assumptions and our thinking.
Kathryn House
And admit when you're wrong.
Michael McQueen
And admit when you're wrong. Absolutely. And then that models from the top. If leaders can do that, that's what causes or triggers a growth mind set in others in the team. Because they realise if leaders are willing to think and challenge and update their assumptions, then it gives us permission to do the same. And then the third element is curiosity. You know, that posture of just openness, intrigue, being more interested in asking questions than rushing to answers. And curiosity is a tricky one because it's something that we find harder and harder to do as we get older. And so
Kathryn House
You get set in your ways.
Michael McQueen
You do, you get set in your ways. And if you look at the data around this, like, kids ask, in some cases, hundreds of questions an hour, particularly when that sort of toddler stage.
Kathryn House
Mhmm.
Michael McQueen
Their curiosity peaks up until about the age of eight and then tapers off to the end of formal schooling education and then plateaus at a low level for the rest of our lives.
Kathryn House
That seems a little sad.
Michael McQueen
It is a bit sad. But it is just the way we we are. And it's not that there's less to know or less to learn, we become less interested in learning it. Partly because we're busy. Like, you've got so much going in life. You you can't keep exploring every opportunity and idea. You've got to specialise and focus on what you know. But the challenge with that is you can get a bit mentally stuck. And you're in the same sort of rut consistently, and our brains don't help this. So if you look at the thing that tends to drive the seeking of novelty, our appetite for new things, and not to get all brain science here, but it's about two things. So dopamine producers and dopamine receptors or receivers. So these two things deal with each other. They're neurons that produce dopamine, which is like the reward hormone, but it's also what triggers interest and curiosity and novelty. So, as we get older, our dopamine producing neurons actually start to die. They just taper off, and there's nothing we can do about it. We can't regenerate them. It's just the way it is. Once you pass a certain point, enough of them actually die, that's what triggers things like Parkinson's disease. So, your dopamine receptors, they don't die off, but they become weaker. The interesting and the good news is you can turn that around. You can essentially make your dopamine receivers more sensitive. It's almost like you can boost their power by doing specific daily and weekly tasks to essentially work out your curiosity muscle to get your brain more interested in new things.
Kathryn House
Give me one.
Michael McQueen
So the best thing, and I've been doing this myself now for the last 14 months, is to do what I call INDIE experiments. So INDIE stands for I'd Never Do It. And so this is a deliberate choice. It's a discipline, but, yeah, it's fun once you get into the groove of it. Every week, choose to do something you would never normally do.
Kathryn House
Oh, I love it.
Michael McQueen
Eat a food you wouldn't eat, drink a drink you wouldn't normally consume, listen to a podcast you would never dial into, drive a different way to work, like, just any number of things you can do. Because what it does is it actually, even at first, what happens is your brain registers uncertainty or new things as a threat. But over time, you essentially condition your brain to see new things as an invitation or an opportunity rather than a threat. That's when your curiosity begins to tick up again. And so for all of us, we need to be more curious than ever. But to do that doesn't happen naturally. You can't just tell yourself I should be more curious. You've actually almost gotta hack your brain. So I got a brain hack to rewire your mind to be more curious. And the beauty is curiosity is the birthplace of innovation. That's where the best studies come from. But you've gotta condition yourself to be more curious.
Kathryn House
Yes. Now I said I wanted to circle back to AI. And I was looking at a segment that you did on Channel 7's Sunrise program recently and discussing what AI means for workplace roles. I think there have been headlines like AI job apocalypse. And I was quite encouraged to hear your view that roles requiring human judgment, creativity, and trust, which you've mentioned before, remain much harder to automate. And that one of the most valuable human advantages may turn out to be 'taste'. Talk us through that.
Michael McQueen
Yes. It's a word that wasn't on my radar until a few weeks ago. So I was reading some commentary from a senior exec at HubSpot, and she was being interviewed about AI. And she used that word taste. And as I read it, because I read so much commentary on this, and they tend to circle around the same words. It's all, you know, judgment and intuition and empathy and creativity, and they're all very true, but we sort of see the same ideas rehashed. And I'm like, as true as those things are, I feel like you don't wanna be trite with this stuff. You just don't. Because the stakes are high. Like, if we get this wrong, and when I say get it wrong, as in rush to cull staff members in the interests of profits and share prices, because you can do that. You can get a whole bunch of agents in, as in AI agents, to do a whole lot of work and cut huge chunks of your workforce, but what do you lose in the process? And then what's the impact on the humans with mortgages and lives and kids, and, like, it's the social disintegration if we rush too quickly into this without thinking about the implications. So the word taste, because it was one I hadn't read, sort of stood out to me. And the idea being one of the things that that is uniquely human is that ability to use judgment and intuition, to be able to go, what's relevant here? What matters? That's what taste is. What is actually good about this as opposed to bad? And I heard this described in the context of accounting. I was doing some work with accountants a few weeks ago, and one of the other speakers at this event said, you know, AI can tell you what you could do from an accounting tax management financial planning standpoint, but it can't tell you what you should do. Because that requires someone that knows you and that is accountable for the advice they give. And and that requires often if you ask a good account, a good financial adviser, it is a gut feel led thing. It's like, I know you and I know your family situation. I know your appetite for risk beyond all the questionnaires you feel. I know you, and I can tell you this is probably it's gonna be best for you. That sort of level of taste, judgment, intuition, is essential. AI is not gonna be replicate anytime soon because I think at the core of it, this comes out of the human soul. AI doesn't have a soul. It has no ability to genuinely intuit. It can synthesise massive datasets and pretend to use judgment and intuition, but it's not. It's actually something that's uniquely human. So those are the things to dial up. Now is that enough to say, you know, if I just dial up those skills, I'll keep my role? Probably, the answer is no, sadly. I think there's also a case to be made for us constantly upskilling ourselves with technology. So you and I figure out how do an OpenClaw agent. Like, let's keep pushing ourselves to do new things because we've got to.
Kathryn House
No. Setting up agents is next on my list. I just need to get past the fear factor.
Michael McQueen
Yeah.
Kathryn House
So a quick one again on workplace, and we've talked about the different generations. But, you know, when it comes to bridging the generation gap. In the workplace, how are the smart organisations catering to both ends of the age spectrum?
Michael McQueen
Yeah. It's tricky because it depends on so many variables. So it can be the industry you're in, for instance. If you're working in industries like, let's say, retail or some personal services like hairdressing, for instance, you're dealing with a whole lot of younger generations and the bulk of your staff. Now if we look at, let's say, CBRE here and I do remember looking at some stats a little while back around what the age skew is depending on the offices, even in Australia here and then New Zealand, and in some offices, much, much older. So you've got the portion of younger generations is only ten to fifteen percent in some cases, whereas the older generation, it's much more. So all of those things have a huge impact. I think the important thing is, with younger generations, make them feel involved, make them feel that their contribution's valuable, and their voice is valuable. And that's probably true for every generation. But we've got older generations for whom, like, just leave me alone. I wanna do my job. I just wanna get on with my job. But younger generations, like, how does what I do fit into the broader picture? How does what I do add value to the organisation beyond just what my role is? And I think showing how work is meaningful is really important, showing how leaders are credible and trustworthy and inspiring. You know, Gen Z, wanna follow leaders who are credible and trustworthy and inspiring. And so that just means you can't just be competent. You need to be those other things as well. So from a leadership standpoint, these are some of the factors I see that organisations are doing this well. The leaders lead with confidence, but also curiosity and openness and humility. They invite ideas and impact. They empower people to step up and contribute, especially as younger generations. And it's not rocket science, but it does make a huge difference.
Kathryn House
So getting on to something that I'm not very good at. And that's change.
Michael McQueen
Uh-huh.
Kathryn House
So your most recent book is Mindstruck, Mastering the Art of Changing Minds. It's based on your extensive research into the psychology of stubbornness.
Michael McQueen
Yes. Yep.
Kathryn House
As I said, not very good at change. So I would love to get your views on why people are so change resistant.
Michael McQueen
Yeah. And this I mean, the whole core of that whole book was, like, what causes us to be mind stuck, to be rigid and fixed in our thinking even when it goes against our best interests. And we all fall into that trap from time to time. And I think the interesting thing is we tend to have an assumption that when people aren't open to new things or won't change their mind or see reason or see the light, whatever it is, it's because there's a knowledge gap. And so we assume if we can just give them better information, updated data, make the compelling case, they'll see the light. They'll change their minds. They'll go, oh my goodness. How did I not see it before? Now sometimes that happens, but it's rare. I mean, the reality is the reasons we're not seeing the light, not changing our mind, often has very little to do with educational knowledge. We've got so much knowledge. I mean, there's no shortage of information knowledge around us right now. And so it's what is it that causes us to have those things at our disposal but ignore them or just for that information not to touch the thing that's causing resistance. And what stood out to me doing the research for this book is that the fear of change is not what stops us from changing, which, again, we've heard that for so many years that humans, just by our very nature, we're all just afraid of change. That's how we are. That's the way we're built. It's not true. So we're not afraid of change. The fear, because it is fear that tends to trigger stubbornness, it's the fear of loss. The moment there's loss involved in change, that's when even if deep down we know we should change, we know the benefits, we've been given all the business case and the data is clear and compelling. If we feel we're gonna lose as a result of the change, we dig our heels in. And so the three big losses, the loss of power, that idea that if we change, I might become less relevant or less needed or lose some of the stature and the status I've got. The loss of certainty, this idea that I know the past. I know what's been expected of me. I've been able to use whatever this system is and it's worked for me. And the new system, the new approach, the new techniques might even be better. But if I don't know how to do it, there's that sense of I might stuff up, I might fail, or I might be made a fool of. The last one is the loss of dignity. The moment our ego is involved, that sense that we almost have to admit we were wrong in order to change our minds.
Kathryn House
Yes.
Michael McQueen
My goodness. We'll bend ourselves inside out.
Kathryn House
Pretzel ourselves.
Michael McQueen
Pretzel ourselves. Even though deep down, we know actually the other idea, a new perspective, a new approach is actually really smart. If our ego takes a hit in order to admit that, it's amazing how we'll do anything to avoid having to admit that we're wrong. And so then the challenge for leaders and even for ourselves if we're trying to talk ourselves into being open for changes, don't try and upsell the benefits of change, lessen the loss. Lessen some of the perceived sense of what you'll lose in the process of change, and people will be far more willing to consider it.
Kathryn House
So that's the best way to sell the benefits of change.
Michael McQueen
Yep.
Kathryn House
So we've talked a little bit about trust, and I've heard you say that it doesn't always come from certainty, strong opinions, and confident delivery. Talk us through a little bit more on that front.
Michael McQueen
Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. So there's a a classic ancient term called dubitatio. Dubitatio is the root word of dubious, this idea of not being sure about something. What the research shows is the more open and almost doubting yourself you can be, it's like it's the opposite of putting your best foot forward. When you put,not your worst foot forward, but this idea of you present an idea and say, look, I'm actually not sure about this, but it's just my hunch. Or, you know, it's almost you share, with vulnerability, your ideas. Interestingly, you might think that would show a lack of credibility. People would shy away from considering your ideas, the very opposite. When you go into a conversation with absolute certainty and bluster, like, this is the way it should be and it's gonna be, and I've done the research. You know, what's the other person gonna do? It's almost like if we were standing opposite each other and I move toward you, your natural instinct, you just wanna move back. You feel crowded. And the same thing happens if I step backwards. So there's often this desire to sort of move forward. Like, it's just it's the same thing. Our posture, it happens psychologically as well. And so the way I encourage leaders is when you're going to a conversation, again, it's a bit like unselling versus upselling. Don't lead with all the reasons why the other person should believe you, should take on board what you're suggesting, why your idea is the best one. If you lead with vulnerability and honesty, it's like self-deprecation, beats self-promotion any day of the week. And so I saw like, a great example of this a little while back, my wife and I were doing a test drive of an EV. And I honestly went into the test drive thinking, oh, I don't know. I was still a bit, you know, we've got family that live three hours from Sydney.
Kathryn House
It's looking pretty good now with petrol prices.
Michael McQueen
Oh, I know. Now that petrol prices, I'm like, maybe we should have. But, like, really ummed and ahhedd. I was a bit, I guess, a bit stubborn. I just thought, is the charging network where it needs to be to get an EV yet. I just wasn't sure why, this is two years ago, I think. And so as we're doing the test drive, I said to the salesperson doing the driving, I said, what's the range on these cars like? Expect him to essentially upsell it, to give us a high ball figure like, oh, you know what? You have no trouble. The batteries are so good now and blah blah blah. I thought he would upsell the idea. And he didn't. He did the opposite. And he said, so the carmaker will tell you that you probably get about 470 k's from a full charge. He said, if I were you, I'd take you about twenty percent off that because all the tests are done in labs where the road surface is smooth, the tires are brand new, there's no wind, there's no rain. And I guess I noticed within myself that resistance that I otherwise could have had just, like, melted away because I'm, like, he's being honest.
Kathryn House
Yes.
Michael McQueen
He's being upfront. And so, again, if you can preface your ideas with that sense of vulnerability and self-deprecation, okay, I could be wrong here, but my sense is that. Or, I'd be interested in your input and then to share your idea. Like, it's changing the posture with which you approach the conversation that tends to trigger trust and openness in the other person.
Kathryn House
So perhaps as a last question, you've spoken to, I believe, more than 500,000 people globally, an extraordinary number, and have shared the stage with some brilliant minds. Who have you learned the most from, and is there one piece of advice that's really stuck with you?
Michael McQueen
Oh, what a great question. Probably the person I was most impressed by was John Maxwell. So if people don't know him, he's written goodness, must be more than 50 New York Times bestsellers now. He's a very, very high-profile leadership author. And, I probably read one of his books when I was like, 17, 18. It was in, like, in the shelf at home, and I grabbed it off the shelf. What was that? I think his first big bestseller was something like the Irrefutable Laws of Leadership or something. Brilliant thinker. He's been writing in this space for decades. And so I was traveling to the US to speak at a conference, and I just was looking at the program before I flew out, and I saw that he was the other headline speaker.
Kathryn House
Exciting.
Michael McQueen
It's like, oh my goodness. So I'm like, dude, truly. I'm like, wow. And I honestly just thought he'll get whisked in, probably helicoptered in, through a back entrance, do his thing, and he'll be out the door. I thought I probably won't get a chance to meet him. Now I get to the event, because it's in one of these big arenas. It's like 15,000 people. You get sort of shuttled in on a golf cart. It's so funny. Like the bows of these venues, it's all very funny. And I get to the green room, and I go in, and the green room is just for him and I. And he's just sitting there, just on his phone, just scrolling like an average human. And
Kathryn House
You're feeling a little intimidated.
Michael McQueen
Well, I just didn't know what to expect. Because, you know, you're always warned, don't meet your heroes. Because sometimes they just don't live up to the hype. And, he was just the most generous, humble, sincere guy. And, one of the phrases we talked about, and that's one of his sort of common quotes that's attributed to him is that people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care.
Kathryn House
Ah, I love it.
Michael McQueen
And, that was one of the things he was talking about at the conference that day from a leadership standpoint. And you know, which ties in so much with the theme of trust that we've talked about. And I just saw him model that. Like, it was just a genuine interest and a genuine humility. And I just remember walking away thinking, that's what I'm gonna be like when I grow up. You know, like, I just no matter what you do and whatever profile you've got to always be accessible and open and and humble. I just loved how he modeled that.
Kathryn House
Yes. Well, thank you so much for joining me today. There were so many great takeaways for me. I am going away this weekend to set up an AI agent. And I'm also going to do something different every week.
Michael McQueen
Brilliant. That sounds wonderful. Let me know how you go.
Kathryn House
I will. To our listeners, thanks for joining. If you like the show and want to check out more, make sure to follow Talking Property wherever you get your podcasts. And we'd love it if you could rate or review the show to help other people find us. Until next time.
