Talking Property | Creating impact through First Nations businesses

SK:
Hello and welcome to Talking Property, our CBRE podcast series where our team of experts, our clients, and industry specialists share insights into the way we live, work, and invest through the lens of commercial real estate. I'm Sujata, Director of CBRE's Supplier Diversity and Sustainable Procurement Program, and I'm your host for this latest Talking Property episode. I would like to start today by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the many lands on which we are recording today's podcast and pay my respects to elders past and present. And as I was reflecting on the topic of today's Talking Property, Indigenous business, I was looking into the history of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander business and trade in Australia. It's a history that predates colonisation, where Indigenous people forged trade routes across vast networks with our neighbors in Asia. And today that trade sector looks a little bit different, but just as vibrant.  

And we will be talking about Indigenous business partnerships, the growth in the Indigenous business sector, the impact that these businesses are having, especially in creating better economic outcomes for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. And importantly, how the property sector can better engage and support our diverse business partners. To explore this, I am delighted to be joined today by Michael O’Loughlin, the Managing Director of ARA Indigenous Services; Rohan Tobler-Williams, the General Manager at ARA; and Shane Jacobs, the Managing Director of Orana Services. CBRE, has had the pleasure of working with ARA and Orana for the past four years. And I am incredibly pleased to have the three of you join with me today. So welcome to the podcast.   

SJ:
Thanks Sujata.   

SK:
Let's start at the beginning. So, Michael, Rohan, Shane, if you could talk a little bit about your businesses and career journeys to date, that would be great. And Shane, I might start with you because you've probably been in business for the longest, I'm guessing.  

SJ:
Yes, well, for me Sujata, it all started - I'm a plumber by trade and then I just found for myself that I needed to elevate myself further up the food chain. So I went back to TAFE and I'd done a diploma in construction. And then from there I went and done my builder's license. And this is a journey over about 20 to 25 years. And, I've had different businesses throughout the year. Probably had one of the largest plumbing businesses in Sydney in the nineties. And then, like I said, I needed to elevate myself further up the food chain. I wanted to become a head contractor. I didn't want to be the subcontractor anymore, even though I still play in both fields. We prefer to be the head contractor and control the supply chain a little bit better, not to be part of the supply chain, but to control it. And that was a business called Plumb AS Plumbing.  

SK:
Great name.  

SJ:
Yes, it was a guy. It was Andrew and Shane. So it was actually PLUMB, capital A, capital S. So yes, that was that. And then I was the managing director at PSG Holdings for 10 years with my cousin Troy Rugless. And then they just moved in the direction that, you know, they were moving into more bigger larger project management and the larger joint ventures with your Lend Lease and your other tier one facilities management businesses. So I decided, I moved on, I wanted to keep making noise on jobs. I wanted to still play the project manager. So we started up 10 years ago, we started up Orana services and it's a multi-trade. Our key clients are you guys, of course, the CBRE, education, the banking sector, and justice.  

So we sort of play in that field. And yes, that's where we are today. And mate, we've probably got a staff of a hundred, maybe, 40 of them Aboriginal men and women, which we're very, very proud of. But the thing we are really, really proud of is our, we've probably got a 60% supply chain spend, you know. And we've just, like I said, we just finished a job in town for you guys with New South Wales Place and ARA Indigenous removed all the fire service for us. So it worked out good. Thanks, Mickey.  

SK:
There's a few things I want to start getting around to. Mick, Rowan, what about yourself? You've had a slightly different path.  

MO:
Yes, I might just start Rowan then you can jump in. But, yes, Michael O’Loughlin, from South Australia. Been in Sydney now living on Gadigal country for the last nearly 30 years. My first profession was as a sportsman playing football in the AFL for the Sydney Swans over a long period of time, was able to forge career. And I sort of hung around and in Sydney with a dream to almost then become an AFL head coach. So I was really hellbent on becoming a professional sports coach in the AFL system. And then my sort of career took a little bit of a side detour around business and getting to know more about the commercial side of the cleaning industry. And our bread and butter is we're a cleaning business and Shane and Troy and what they've been able to do.  

And certainly my knowledge around PSG, they'd been a trailblazer in that profession. And certainly when I think back now, 10-plus years ago, there were probably only around about 20 or 30 Aboriginal products or businesses and then we hit we're, you know, we're 2023. I think there's closer to 3,000 Aboriginal businesses. So incredible. And Shane and Troy play a huge role in that because a bit like myself, wanting to become a professional sports person as a teenager, you have to actually see it to believe it. And that's, I guess what those exactly the same steps in terms of my forging my career in the cleaning industry. So I saw what these guys are doing and they were very successful. And luckily for me, they, you know, they were able to give me some tips and take me under their wing a little bit.  

So for me, that inspiration, we have an obligation to be able to pass that on to, to our younger generations. And I think that's what Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander people do really well. You know, we don't just take it and take it to the grave with us. We always share our knowledge around that. So the commercial cleaning business has been incredible for my family and community. If you're like Shane, we've grown our business now over a number of years, and we're sitting under about 90 Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander people working within that business. So again, really we're really proud of what we've been able to do in the community. A lot of our sites, we've got representation of our people working. Some sites don't have it, but the spend is really important. When CBRE gives us a role, we're really honest and we say, look, we've got access to community here, or we've got capability to be able to produce the cleaning that you need.  

And if we don't, I think we think we're a really honest business to come back to you and say, look, we might struggle here. It's probably better to look at someone else in our industry. So, but always about stories and you know, as you tell, I can talk underwater with marbles in my mouth, but for me it's always been around the stories and the people you surround yourself with. And Rohan, who's on this call and is our general manager, has been a a huge success story for us in our business along with a lot of others. But one that I guess gives me a spring in my step and the thing I'm most proud of.  

SK:
And Rohan, how did you two meet? 

RTW:
I met Mick on TV I think. I just had to remind myself that I'm on a podcast because I've listened to Shane and Mick's stories. Like I've looked up to these guys for years. And, you know, they were always doing something different than what I thought I could ever achieve. And then you're sitting on a podcast with them and you know, you take looking after Michael O’Loughlin's business unit at ARA. So we met a few times, but I don't think Mick would've remembered me, I was a lot younger. But Michael had a role here at ARA Indigenous Services, just doing indigenous engagement. My background, my first ever gig was a paper boy when I was about 11-years-old. And then my first full-time gig when I left school before the end of year 10 was to be apprentice carpenter. So my background's always been in the construction industry, but then later on in life, it aligned the construction industry and our people.  

And I was doing employment programs. So I worked at a place called Career Job Ready and that's where I met Mick a few times. He'd come down and spoke to our students at different events. And then I spent sort of from 21 onwards in senior leadership, predominantly in social enterprises. And then I went back on the tools for a bit and received a phone call from Michael to say, "Hey, I've got this position here. Mate, would you like to come have a crack with us?" And I wasn't too sure. I was a little bit scared because it was a big business and a for-profit business. But coming in and spending, you know, at least six weeks with Mick, I was sold that, you know, ARA and for-profit business is where it was at. And it's been a crazy journey since then. So we've probably officially met in 2020 - October, 2020, I think it was.  

SK:
You've been working at ARA ever since? 

RTW:
Yes. So I started three years ago as Indigenous almost four years ago now as Indigenous engagement manager. Then went to strategy and growth manager to general manager to director and shareholder in the business. But put the titles aside, it's the growth underneath Michael's leadership and the people that I get to associate with every day. You know, working alongside the Shane Jacobs of the world has been my biggest achievement, you know, learning from them.  

SK:
And Rohan, you just said it about Mick and Shane and Mick just said this about Shane, but it made me really think of that saying, 'you can't be what you don't see'. And Shane, you know, having a business in the nineties, you were in business before a lot of corporates were talking about Indigenous businesses in the supply chain and Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander businesses. What was that like?  

SJ:
Well, I started business before a lot of these guys were even born. That's the sad thing about it.  

But when I first started in business, you know, like I said to you guys the other day, you know what I mean? Because dad's got background as a South Pacific Islander, we used to tell everyone, but in the plumbing business, we used to tell everyone we're Hawaiians because if we told them we're black fellas, we wouldn't get the work. And it's, I'm talking like late eighties, you know, it's just what we had to do. And then when they met my dad, they thought we was Hawaiian, you know what I mean? Because he looks like an Islander, you know? And then like when all this started to turn around, it was so refreshing. Like originally PSG was one of the first businesses to join AMPSY, one of the first certified suppliers.  

And I could see it was all changing then. Then I went onto the board of Supply Nation and then I knew, I went back, I said to Rugo, "Mate, we've got to get our ducks in a row here, mate". This is happening. It's bipartisan in government. I said, it's real. I said, that's when we started getting our federal accreditation, all our ISO accreditations. I said, we need to invest in our business mate, because there's going to be a lot of opportunity out here. And I said, it's, it's going to be our turn to get something back and to be able to invest in our people and give to our community. And that's what we've done. But it was, back in the eighties, it was different. It was really different. You didn't, you didn't say, well, you sort of did suppress it that you were Aboriginal, you know what I mean?  

And then like the dreaded question was you were sitting in a tender meeting, they'd asked like, where are you from? You used to dread that question, you know what I mean? I used to dread it. I used go I've got to make up something here. You know what I mean? So I used to say Hawaiian. That that was our little journey, but now it's turned around, it's unreal. It's great, you know, and I think supplier diversity, like from every level, from, from your boardrooms right down to your people that make noise, your labours on your job. It's, you know, it brings innovation to an organisation and that's what I love about it.  

SK:
Yes, absolutely. And I'm glad we've come at least a little bit of a way since then. And you were talking about that growth in businesses. I mean, you guys were the pioneers. And without businesses like yours, we wouldn't be seeing the growth that we are now. But I was looking at a couple of the stats saying that when, you know, Supply Nation, back in 2015, they had about 300 odd suppliers and now it's over 3,500, which is massive. And then the other thing that you both mentioned, and again, I was looking at some of the stats, was that collectively Supply Nation businesses employ about 40,000 people. And of those, over 14,000 are Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander. So about 36 odd percent, which is an incredible impact. And your businesses are both reflective of that. Is that something that you think you want clients to be mindful of as well? Is that that impact and what that looks like?  

RTW:
It is. I mean, I remember sitting on advisory panels for government when they were talking about, you know, making policies like Epic and Alike. The whole big selling point was that if you encourage and make it possible for Indigenous business and someone make the policy mandatory, then the reliant on government funding, government programs, all that type of stuff, that handout mentality people used to carry on about would slowly evaporate. Because as Aboriginal people, we don't do this because we're forced. We don't employ our people. Or sometimes we go, we're forced to employ our family members - Amy, but we don't do it because we're forced. It's just naturally who we are. And we are very good at making sure that we are always stopping, checking our footprints and making sure that community are following in behind us. You know, I say this all the time, had it not been for Mick and ARA Indigenous services, I definitely wouldn't be a general manager, not for a business of this size.  

I think the next generation will, because they're getting educated well. There's been some really good trailblazing programs around education, but we're not the educated generation. We were the most passionate generation and that's how we ended up in leadership. So yeah, definitely. And the more you give to an Indigenous business, the more of that spend target that everybody talks about, hits the kitchen tables of our community members. You've got to visit those big dollar signs that the peoples who say "Oh, we spent a hundred million dollars on this project". Think about what type of food went onto that community's table. And that's whether the policy's working or not. And in the process we're getting skilled, we're taking on leadership roles. We, you know, we're being self determined, we're participating economically. That's what you've got to look for.  

SJ:
Hey Rohan, do you think the big change coming, piggyback on what you said, when it became a mandatory spend, that's when the ball really started rolling and then we found, we had tier ones and government ringing us. That's when I think the change was. When it went from a target spend to a mandatory spend and it became the IPP in federal government. I think that's when it all changed.  

RTW: 
It definitely changed. It changed when it went from, it'd be nice if you try, to if you don't, we're going to penalise you. That's when I noticed the change come. And the same thing happened with employment too. It was please put an ad in the paper and that meets the requirement. Or we're going to come onto your site and if you don't have your 10 Indigenous apprentices, you're going to be chopped when it comes to invoicing time. So that's when I felt the change really came. And then the other part of it was, was on our end as Aboriginal people, we had to rise to that. Because if we did not make that policy or what become mandatory really work, it'd been taken straight off the table. It would've been, this is not working, let's look at something else. You know? So we had to rise to that occasion and we, I think our people did and we are.  

SJ:
Yes. And I think what we were just saying before, we had to make it happen, but like we needed someone to fund us also too. And for me and for Orana Services, IBA's played a massive part in our own business. You know, like with bank guarantees, seed funding, you know what I mean? Like it's all good having these opportunities, but if you can't come up with a bank home guarantee, what's the point of having them? So I think holistically now, we're not closing a gap, but this procurement gap and this gap in the corporate sector and us getting work, it is starting to close a bit. And I think the corporates and government are seeing us as like for like businesses now. You know? And I love when people say to me, "What's the struggle an Aboriginal business has?" It's the same struggle every other business has. You know, retaining staff, cashflow, getting the right people in to those that don't do their work. You know, but we just don't, as Aboriginal businesses, we didn't have the access to the funding. But now with the IBA, it's really for us, with the opportunities, getting funding has changed our business tenfold and tenfold quicker too.  

SK:
And just really quickly, Shane, there's probably people listening who aren't familiar with IBA and what they do. Did you want to just give a quick introduction?  

SJ:
Yes. IBA is Indigenous Business Australia, but they're our financial institution and they help us out with invoice and financing. And its criteria to get approval is a little bit different. We can leverage contracts we've won and all that. We've still got to put property up, but they understand us when we go for a loan. They understand the situation that we're in. We're not in generational businesses that the grandfathers run, you know what I mean? That's got a big bank behind them and they've got everything all set up. You know, like Rohan just said, you know, like, we've had to do all this ourselves and you know, we've had to do it through passion and just through learning and losing. You know, I've learned more through losing than anything.   

SK:
And that might be a bit of a segue into...so, I know that we've been working together, or you guys have been working with CBRE for almost four years now. And I think that journey has definitely had some ups and downs. So I guess as part of that, and Mick I'll ask you first, how do you think the property sector can better engage with Indigenous businesses? And what do you think are some of the really critical elements when it comes to creating long-term partnerships?   

MO:
It's a great question. There's a lot of fantastic Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander businesses out there, especially in our industry. And I think when an FM gets an opportunity from a client to approach a business like mine or others, is having someone, and I don't mean to embarrass you, but someone like yourself that's working within a large organisation. Because let's face it, a lot of things do get lost when you have a big organisation. It just, you know, things slip and I don't think people mean any malice by it, but things do get missed and all of a sudden, the tenders that you thought you were a chance for is gone. And you don't see that again. And you have to wait another three or four years before that opportunity comes up. So being in the know of what's going on inside your building and the things that you hear on the ground that can then be articulated and sent an email and followed up and go, "Mick, don't miss this opportunity".  

These things are happening. Make sure your ducks are in a row and they're really important and they make a world of difference. And I think Shane said it before, we're the first in our families to own and operate and do business. We don't have any generational wealth. So we're learning this as we go as at the same time. And what we do around sharing that dollar that comes through the door is we've always done that. And Aboriginal people will continue to do that. That dollar goes four or five ways once it's landed on the table. So you know, you won't see Shane, well not right now, maybe in another couple more years buying a yacht in the harbor and sailing off the sunset  

SJ:
When that happens, mate, you'll be on board.  

MO:
Correct. It is always, as a community, as a people, we always have taken care of each other. And that is just the way Aboriginal people have operated for thousands of years. So it's not mine, it's ours. And I think when an opportunity walks through the door, it's always, you know, it's the hustle and bustle and making sure that you've got your tender right. Make sure you've got all the right people. As Shane said before, it is really important that, you know, the pressure is on us. And I understand as an ex-sportsman playing AFL football at a high level, that young black kids were watching me on television. So I understood that, I accepted that responsibility and I knew what I had to do. So to be a successful player, you had to train hard, eat well, turn up on time, make sure that you are going above and beyond to make sure that you are doing everything you can just to be a really positive impact within the team of the organisation.  

So the same philosophy I have is exactly now with business. I try to surround myself with really good people because genuinely I get good results. And it's one of my favourite sayings. So I have people like Rohan who works for our business and when Rohan's doing really well, we just make sure that there is a career pathway to be able to promote that. So we need to continue to tell really great stories about our people and our businesses because you know, unfortunately when you pick up a paper we're on the front page. It's always a mad, bad and sad reaction. So we need to be going great stories like Shane's business, like my business. Rohan, I don't mean to embarrass Rohan right now, but Rohan was in the Financial Review, one of the young entrepreneurs of the year; Indigenous entrepreneurs of the of the year.  

So on Rohan. But a great story and we need to continue those stories. So the capability and the opportunities when they present themselves, I'm really thankful for them. But we work really hard like any other business in Australia or around the world. But ultimately I try to keep it really simple and that is be around really good people, work hard, go above and beyond. And we're a business that we know we make mistakes, we absolutely make mistakes. But I think what we do really well is we try to rectify really quickly, find out what that is, problem solve. You know, our people have been solving problems for years. Years and thousands and thousands of years. So, it's nothing new, but we need to continue the conversation around our great stories, people within our organisations and we need to keep on promoting all of our other brothers and sisters and all their incredible work, what they do and starting their businesses. So as I said, I saw Shane do what he did, I saw what Troy do what he did. I thought, yes okay, I'm going to go out on a limb here and I'm going to have a crack at it. I can always go back to football and become a coach. That's a passion of mine. I still love it. But yes, I really wanted to give this thing a crack at it. And I think we've done okay; we continue to sort of chip away, but really important to keep on telling those stories as well.  
 
SK:
The stories is people buy from people. So, you know, those stories is how one of the tools that I use, I think to introduce you into our business. And I know that, I had a startup back in the day and this was somebody, you know, I worked in procurement. I thought it would be easy on the other side and it absolutely wasn't. Even as somebody who'd worked in a corporate and thought I knew what I was doing. So I could only imagine what it's like to sort of navigate organisations like CBRE without that knowledge.  

MO:
Yes, we have knowledge up here. We don't have knowledge around...when I'm starting this business, our people, we've never participated in the economic development of Australia. We don't have any, we don't have wealth. So now for us, you had to play sport to earn a really great living and sport has changed my life. It's been an amazing journey. But that was a long time ago. So now what can you do? It takes no talent to turn up on time and I talk to a lot of school children with our foundation. It takes no talent to turn up to school and participate in the class. There's no talent around. It takes a lot of talent to play professional Rugby League or AFL or Union or whatever it might be. That takes no talent, it takes an effort. So we need to continue to, as I said, those stories are really important. But now the next big thing, and Shane touched on it again, was around having it mandated and making sure that all of our ducks are in a row. We've got a service that we think that we're a really good business to be a part of. And you'll learn some really great things along that journey as well. But we need those opportunities because we can do it.  

SK:
And thinking again about what else do we need to know and how we can better support your businesses. I know Mick you mentioned it's just about opportunities and having sort of a central point of contact in in the organisation. Is there anything else you can think of that you would want your clients to know? Shane, I might throw it over to you.  

SJ:
Well, I believe with diversity, innovation comes. For me, that's like us working down in that place management where all the Koori boys down there all working and all that. And one of the guards come down and he said to us, "This is where Australia started here, mate". We all just looked and laughed at each other. He goes, "What are you laughing at?" And I said, "We're all Koori boys mate". He went, "Sorry, I didn't know. I didn't know". I said, yes, that's alright. But he's learned something now about us. Now he comes down and we're telling him about our cultures and where we're from. We're talking about Darug Land. But for me, I just think it's, it's got to be in the DNA of a business.  

Like going back up to the eighties, SWIMS and that, when they all first came in, everyone went, "What's all this?" What's SWIMS, what's safety plans on jobs? And I thought I'm never going to get my head around this. But now it's just one of the folders up high in your office. And I think the folder next to that, it's got to be supplier diversity. It's got to be your social spend and your social empathy. And I think it's like SWIMS now. Jobs are safer now because of all this, people are aware of safety and from that innovations come. You know, the jobs are safer, everyone's working safer. I think once they understand what Aboriginal business and what Aboriginal men and women have got to offer, and everyone's got something different offer, but what we've got to offer and what we do to through our community, get on board with that. And I think that once that folder's up there and it's full, it'll be something else we'll be looking at. Whatever that next thing is, I don't know. But it's just got to be part of business now. 

RTW:
When you engage with Aboriginal people or Aboriginal businesses or Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander business, you get different methods and ways and particularly because we're emerging in the business space, they're seen as really exciting new things. But they're really methods that have been passed down since millennia. And now we're able to implement these into our workplaces and the way we run our businesses. So the best example I've got, especially our team at ARA Indigenous, is that we don't manage from a hierarchy structure. We manage from a circular structure, you know. And in the middle of the circle is your apprentices, your new start cleaners and whatever. And then on the outside is your senior people. And it's not based on title or pay grades, but it's based on knowledge and experience. That's what's respected, you know?  

So I spent time talking about this today and one of our technicians has been a technician for 10 years. He sits on the outside circle with us because he's so senior and he's so well respected. So that's only one of many methods, but simple stuff like that, that is effective. And then when you have a week like we've had in the last couple of weeks coming in the end of financial year, the amount of people that put their hand up to sit on the outside of that circle when there's a hole, nobody sits around and says, "No not my job, not my pay grade, not my title". They just do it. It's like people's minds are really blown about the way we can do that.  
 
SK:
I think that's one thing that is really important is the diversity of thought and the different ways of thinking that, that you bring into organisations like ours. And if I think about where we're facing a lot of challenges globally, you know, environmental challenges and social challenges, we won't be able to tackle those unless we have new ways of thinking. New approaches to that. And without diversity of thought, diversity of business, diversity of of people, we're not going to be able to solve those challenges. That's the truth.  

RTW:
A hundred percent. Like if you think, you know, just on that alone, with our people, our concern for country, the way that we take care of our own, the way that we like to have balance in everything we do - just those things alone, if they were implemented across the board, how much better place would we be in this world?  

SK:
We're coming into NAIDOC week really shortly and we've just had reconciliation week not long ago. What's your hope for your businesses and for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander businesses into the future? Mick I might circle back to you.   

MO:
It's a great question. I think when I reflect on our business, all it's really done - well done a lot for me. But the one thing I take out and I sort of hang my hat on is around flexibility and agile as a business that, that we can be. I just keep on picturing and thinking back to as a young boy growing up and our communities around the country are sports obsessed. You know, it's something in the blood running through the veins that we're really good at it. But it's something that is drummed into you when you're a young boy playing football and you aspire to be this professional person. So as a business owner now, and reflecting out back as a young boy, we played in a lot of our Aboriginal carnivals, whether it be the AFL one, whether it be the Rugby League knockout, whether it be the netball carnival, as a business owner now, I contribute to our carnivals.   

So back in the day, we would have to wait for government approval and money to land before we could actually even have a carnival. Now the influx of Aboriginal businesses would contribute to that now, and it's simple as a phone call or quick email. There's not this three to four month wait hoping we get the funding. So we're dictating our own path and how we want to view that. So I'm really proud of that and Rohan will ring me and go, "Hey, someone else, another community's looking for some sponsorship". And I'll go, "Okay, who is it? What do they do?" And they all sort of come out, but I think that's a really great thing and we try to help as many communities as we can. I spoke about the business growing and becoming even bigger and employing more and more Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander people.   

And I go back to what Shane said before at the start of the conversation, I hope that someone joins our business does it for a year or two or three or whatever it is, figures out, hey, wow, this is actually worthwhile. I can actually do this myself. Why wouldn't I start a business? We would support that and we have supported that in the past. So I'm hopeful. Yeah, I'm really hopeful and when I reflect on NAIDOC week, Reconciliation Week and what my grandfather and my grandmother went through, and we all reflect on our old people and the opportunities that they never had. Now we've got the world at our feet at the moment. So there's a responsibility absolutely, that I take very, very seriously as a business owner and as a leader in their community. And my responsibility around that is to continue to teach and to help. So yes, when I think about NAIDOC week, I think about Reconciliation Week, I think about, Sorry Day, I think about all those old people back in our communities and certainly here being a boy from Adelaide living in New South Wales now, and how lucky I was to land in this incredible country here in New South Wales. It's been amazing.   

SJ:
Come on Mick. I know that story, mate. You said it at the Maroubra Lions football thing. You wanted to come home, your mum said, sorry, your cousin's in your bed. Learn to like it.   

MO:
Learn to love Gadigal country, you said. But it is so true. I mean, and we, as you guys all know, we love talking about our people. It's one of the great things. Our humor is one of our greatest strengths. And you've had to, you had to have great humour to survive what we've been through, right? But you're not wrong, Shane. There's lots of sad times along that journey, but then you meet great people along that journey as well. So I'm very hopeful that we can continue to do what we do. We only become successful when we win work from businesses like yourself, Sujata. Like it's really critical. And then there's our end of the bargain we've got to uphold. When I shake your hand and look you in the eye and say, we can do the job, we can do the job. So I'll continue to surround myself with people like Rohan, Shane and Troy and, and a great mate of mine, Adam Goodes, who is also a very successful person in his own right. So the more of our young people see people like Shane and Rohan and myself, that's a really great thing. That's a really great thing. So, yes, plenty of things to reflect on and and be hopeful for I think. But NAIDOC week, special week we get to talk about our mob and our culture and our history.   

SJ:
Hey Mick, let me ask you something. Do you get the same buzz out of business winning contracts and delivering contracts as you did out of football?   

MO:
Absolutely. It's like coming off...when you win a tender, a tender's a little bit longer as you know, because it might take months, it might take even longer than a month or two. But the art of the deal I guess and trying to sort of convince a business like CBRE that we are really good, honest, hardworking business and that's why you should use us, because these outcomes will happen if you do. I love that, I love that. Whereas if I was a sports person in a team, when you're a young fellow, all you're doing is trying to play a game of professional football. Kick a goal if you can and survive. And then as you get older you become more team orientated and you want the team to do really well. And I'm in that period now in my life where I want our business to do really well because I know how it affects a lot of other people. And I love seeing young people emerge as these incredible leaders like Rohan has for our business. Because I want them to take the torch and carry it. And that gives me a buzz mate. Absolutely.   

RTW:
On that question. You know, I always, I think about if you don't have a vision of what this looks like when you are dead and gone, then you're a little bit rudderless and you're sort of on your travels. But, you know, first thing I want is our kids inheriting businesses, not trauma. And when they're inheriting businesses, I want them to be able to make the key decisions on their own be that well skilled and adverse and make the key decisions on their own. They let the big contracts, you know, they make the big calls, they sit around the boardroom tables to the point where you don't longer need a reconciliation action plan to drive this. You don't need an epic government policy to drive this. You don't need none of it because it's just the best decision to make.   

SK:
And Shane, any last reflections from you?   

SJ:
I just think we've got to keep at it. Like you said, we're doing it for our legacy here and we're doing it for community and we have to make it work. There's too many people relying on us and you know, I think that that's our driver, you know what I mean? Not not only for ourself, but you know, like we know the people who are relying on us. You know, like I need to let this guy pay his home off. You know what I mean? So I'm going to keep going for that legacy.  

SK:
And for organisations like ours I know that we're here to support you as best we can through creating some of those opportunities and hopefully everyone who's listening today has been able to take away a little nugget that helps them think a little bit differently and think about their supply chain a little bit differently. Shane, Mick, Rohan, I think we could have probably kept talking for another couple of hours. But there's a few things that I've just taken away from our conversation. Rohan, just what you said at the end, you want your kids to be inheriting businesses not trauma. I think that's a really powerful statement. Mick, you talked about the importance of sharing stories and I think we only create change if we do share those stories and continue to. And Shane, you said that when we're talking about working with companies like CBRE, it needs to be in the DNA of an organisation, you know, diversity and inclusion.  

It needs to run through everywhere. Like you said, Rohan, to the point that you don't need a reconciliation action plan. It is how we work. It's how we buy, it's how we operate. I'm really excited to be working with you now and I'm really excited to have the opportunity to continue to work together over the next hopefully many, many, many years. And for everyone listening, we hope that having Shane, Mick and Rohan share their stories has been really valuable. Thank you for tuning in to the latest episode of Talking Property with CBRE and our very special guests. If you like the show and want to check out more, please visit cbre.com.au/talking-property or subscribe through Spotify and Apple Podcasts. And until next time.